00:00 We create more unicorns than anywhere
00:02
00:02 outside the US and China. We have one of
00:05
00:05 the largest pools of capital in the
00:06
00:06 world. We have all the ingredients. We
00:08
00:08 have the equipment. We just actually
00:09
00:09 need to bake the cake.
00:10
00:10 >> I happen to believe that if you spend
00:12
00:12 more time connecting some of our
00:14
00:14 inventors and entrepreneurs with the
00:16
00:16 next generation of classrooms, they have
00:19
00:19 a huge amount in common.
00:20
00:20 >> Yes.
00:20
00:20 >> And if we did that more often, maybe we
00:22
00:22 wouldn’t see business so negatively. You
00:23
00:23 should aspire to be obsolete as a leader
00:25
00:25 because actually you’ve created a team
00:28
00:28 that could do it anyway.
00:32
00:32 >> Hello and welcome to Tomorrow the Future
00:34
00:34 Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett and
00:37
00:37 here at Future Forum, we’re all about
00:39
00:39 bringing together very different people
00:41
00:41 from completely different industries to
00:43
00:43 shape the future together. Today’s guest
00:46
00:46 is someone who sits at the intersection
00:49
00:49 of finance, technology, and trust. As
00:53
00:53 chief executive of the London Stock
00:55
00:55 Exchange, Dame Julia Hogett is leading
00:58
00:58 one of Britain’s oldest institutions
00:60
00:60 through one of the fastest moving
01:02
01:02 periods in British history. So yes,
01:06
01:06 we’re going to talk about the future of
01:08
01:08 investment and I think the future of
01:09
01:09 leadership, but also about the future of
01:12
01:12 British business itself. Dame Julia has
01:16
01:16 been known to use the phrase that she
01:17
01:17 leads a 300year-old fintech and I think
01:20
01:20 that gives us a clue about how she
01:22
01:22 thinks about preserving trust whilst
01:25
01:25 embracing change. Dame Julia Hoger,
01:28
01:28 welcome to tomorrow.
01:29
01:29 >> Thank you very much for having me.
01:30
01:30 >> It’s great to see you Julia and I
01:33
01:33 thought we’d start with a glimpse a
01:34
01:34 glimpse of the future.
01:37
01:37 >> Tell us what you see.
01:38
01:38 Well, one of the reasons I came to
01:40
01:40 London Stock Exchange was to try and get
01:42
01:42 us to a future state that I had in my
01:44
01:44 head as quickly as possible. [laughter]
01:47
01:47 So, London has and the UK has a
01:50
01:50 remarkable number of strengths. We
01:52
01:52 create more unicorns than anywhere
01:54
01:54 outside the US and China. We have one of
01:56
01:56 the largest pools of capital in the
01:57
01:57 world. We have one of the oldest and
01:59
01:59 most successful capital markets in the
02:01
02:01 world. We have rule of law. We have
02:03
02:03 great regulation. Um, we have amazing
02:05
02:05 science coming out of our universities.
02:07
02:07 Just think what could happen as an
02:08
02:08 economy if we actually put all of that
02:10
02:10 together. It’s a bit like bake off, you
02:12
02:12 know, think of the tent. We have all the
02:13
02:13 ingredients, we have the hosts, we have
02:14
02:14 the tent, we have the equipment, we just
02:17
02:17 actually need to bake the cake,
02:18
02:18 >> right? So all rise.
02:19
02:19 >> All rise indeed. And so my vision was
02:22
02:22 really how do we harness all of those
02:24
02:24 ingredients, make sure that our capital
02:26
02:26 markets work as well as possible to
02:28
02:28 finance that innovation that’s happening
02:30
02:30 across the economy and also to make sure
02:32
02:32 that everybody in the country feels that
02:33
02:33 they’ve got a stake in it. You know,
02:35
02:35 that’s equally important. So, a steak in
02:37
02:37 the b. Okay, enough [laughter] enough.
02:38
02:38 >> You’ve already found a load of analogies
02:41
02:41 for it. There we go.
02:42
02:42 >> Um, okay. So, in terms of the outcome,
02:45
02:45 when those ingredients come together,
02:47
02:47 why is that good news
02:49
02:49 >> for Britain overall? Well, let’s just
02:52
02:52 ask that as the biggest open question of
02:55
02:55 all. Why?
02:56
02:56 >> So, I have a lot of phrases I use a lot.
02:58
02:58 300 fintech is one of them. Um, there’s
03:01
03:01 a thing in the exchange called Julia
03:02
03:02 Bingo where people will ask what speech
03:04
03:04 I’m giving and then they’ll start
03:05
03:05 ticking off the phrases that I I use.
03:08
03:08 >> But the main phrase I use all the time
03:10
03:10 is that stock exchanges are conveners.
03:12
03:12 Our job is to bring together those who
03:13
03:13 have capital with those who need capital
03:15
03:15 in service of an objective.
03:17
03:17 >> We can talk about transparent price
03:18
03:18 formation process. I can talk about low
03:20
03:20 latency trading. I can talk about
03:21
03:21 information flows. I can talk about all
03:23
03:23 of that. But at the end of the day, it’s
03:25
03:25 enabling people who need money because
03:27
03:27 they have a great idea and they want it
03:28
03:28 to be financed to be connected with the
03:30
03:30 people who have it and the people who
03:31
03:31 have it to get a great return from
03:33
03:33 investing in the people who’ve got a
03:34
03:34 good idea. That’s it. That that’s
03:36
03:36 actually what our capital markets are
03:38
03:38 designed to do. We abstract it to the
03:40
03:40 point of losing that sense of what it’s
03:43
03:43 for. And to me, that’s really what
03:45
03:45 getting our capital markets to work well
03:47
03:47 is about doing. It’s about making sure
03:49
03:49 that we can recycle our own capital
03:51
03:51 effectively into the next stage of inte
03:54
03:54 growth in the economy that everybody
03:56
03:56 across the country feels and that in the
03:58
03:58 end we’ve all got a stake in our
03:59
03:59 nation’s success.
04:01
04:01 >> So one of the upshots of that is that
04:03
04:03 great innovators get the capital they
04:04
04:04 need to scale their innovations to keep
04:07
04:07 solving problems. I suspect and I’ve
04:09
04:09 interviewed a fair few listed company
04:11
04:11 chief execs. There’s more to it than
04:14
04:14 that as well, isn’t there? there’s more
04:15
04:15 to it that motivates them when they put
04:17
04:17 that company onto the London Stock
04:19
04:19 Exchange. Just help us help us
04:21
04:21 understand what’s driving that. It’s
04:23
04:23 it’s it’s quite a few things.
04:24
04:24 >> Well, there’s there’s lots of things in
04:25
04:25 terms of a company’s choice as to public
04:27
04:27 listing or or not. But I think that
04:30
04:30 let’s talk about the amazing thing that
04:31
04:31 it is to found a company in the first
04:32
04:32 place, you know, and you you and I meet
04:34
04:34 a lot of founders all the time. The one
04:36
04:36 thing I find that a lot of them have in
04:37
04:37 common, two two things actually. first
04:39
04:39 is they’ve usually found a problem that
04:42
04:42 they’ve faced or that they’ve observed
04:44
04:44 that they want to fix.
04:45
04:45 >> So they’re inherently problem solvers. I
04:47
04:47 think the other thing a lot of CEOs have
04:49
04:49 in common is we tend to believe we can
04:51
04:51 act on the future. You know, actually
04:53
04:53 people who believe they can act on the
04:55
04:55 future combined with people who
04:56
04:56 intensely focused on solving a problem
04:58
04:58 is a good thing.
04:59
04:59 >> Yeah.
04:60
04:60 >> You know, then it’s about how do we give
05:02
05:02 them the ecosystem and the support to
05:04
05:04 enable them to realize that dream and
05:06
05:06 that vision. Um, and cap public capital
05:09
05:09 markets are designed to do that, but
05:11
05:11 they do it in a way that is transparent
05:12
05:12 and fair and has reasonable access for
05:15
05:15 everybody. So, public markets are
05:17
05:17 inherently democratizing. If you meet
05:19
05:19 the requirements to be eligible for the
05:20
05:20 market, you get on. It’s not who you
05:22
05:22 know. It’s not whether you got tapped on
05:24
05:24 the shoulder. You get on. If you have a
05:26
05:26 good story, investors will back you.
05:29
05:29 Again, it’s not who you know, it’s it’s
05:31
05:31 you get the opportunity. And any
05:33
05:33 investor, whether they’re retail to the
05:34
05:34 biggest institution, can buy you. And
05:37
05:37 therefore actually fundamentally it is
05:39
05:39 democratizing but the other benefit of
05:41
05:41 public listing not only getting access
05:43
05:43 to the capital is also the scrutiny
05:45
05:45 that’s required. I mean there is a
05:47
05:47 discipline that comes with that you know
05:49
05:49 actually being able to understand what
05:51
05:51 your business model delivers what its
05:53
05:53 finances deliver being able to set
05:55
05:55 expectations as to what you think you’re
05:56
05:56 going to make quarter and quarter having
05:58
05:58 the risk committees and the discipline
05:59
05:59 to actually know that that’s the case.
06:02
06:02 One of the things I was in when I was a
06:04
06:04 regulator I used to think of it this
06:05
06:05 way. There’s a very big step change in a
06:07
06:07 company from when everybody has a name
06:09
06:09 to everybody needing a number.
06:11
06:11 >> And actually, one of the things that
06:12
06:12 public markets are very good at doing is
06:14
06:14 enabling companies to put the discipline
06:16
06:16 in place, the infrastructure in place to
06:18
06:18 be able to really scale, you know, not
06:20
06:20 just to service that small market in
06:22
06:22 that one location, but actually if we
06:24
06:24 won 10 contracts in one day, could we
06:26
06:26 actually service all of them? You know,
06:28
06:28 in could we realize the capital to do
06:30
06:30 so?
06:30
06:30 >> And in that sense, it’s more than a
06:32
06:32 stamp of approval. Uh it is about going
06:35
06:35 through those processes uh to say look
06:38
06:38 this is world class but we’re ready.
06:39
06:39 >> It’s a facilitation of strategic intent.
06:42
06:42 That to me is what it’s about.
06:43
06:43 >> Is that on the bingo card?
06:44
06:44 >> It isn’t actually. That’s a new one.
06:46
06:46 That’s a new one.
06:47
06:47 >> You make a joke about yourself about the
06:49
06:49 bingo card. But I’ve also heard you say
06:51
06:51 that leadership is about repetition. And
06:53
06:53 that’s quite a serious point because it
06:55
06:55 can be tempting to always want to come
06:56
06:56 up with something new, a new line.
06:58
06:58 >> But you have to repeat yourself.
06:59
06:59 >> Well, I think it matters. The reason I
07:02
07:02 use the phrase 300 year old fintech is
07:04
07:04 because instantaneously people get what
07:06
07:06 I mean. You know the stock exchange has
07:08
07:08 been around in various forms since 1698.
07:10
07:10 Now when we first started Jonathan
07:12
07:12 Castain was pinning prices to a coffee
07:14
07:14 house door on a Tuesday afternoon and a
07:16
07:16 Friday afternoon. Now if that was the
07:17
07:17 speed of our data provision right now we
07:19
07:19 wouldn’t still be in business. You know
07:21
07:21 we now measure our trading in
07:23
07:23 nanoseconds and picosconds. But the
07:25
07:25 purpose is unchanged in 300 years. it is
07:28
07:28 still to be that convenor of capital to
07:30
07:30 bring together those who have it those
07:31
07:31 who need it in service of an objective.
07:33
07:33 So two things can be true at the same
07:36
07:36 time and if you want to get across
07:38
07:38 slightly more nuanced points to people
07:40
07:40 and not construct all these false
07:42
07:42 binaries that I think we spend too much
07:44
07:44 of our lives in you actually do need to
07:46
07:46 repeat yourself about where that space
07:49
07:49 of nuance and understanding can be.
07:50
07:50 >> Yeah. Well, I think that clarity
07:52
07:52 matters, especially when you’re trying
07:54
07:54 to shake up perception, sometimes
07:57
07:57 misconception. So, I wonder if there is
07:60
07:60 on the flip side a couple of myths that
08:02
08:02 you think are probably worth busting
08:04
08:04 about the London Stock Exchange. And I’m
08:06
08:06 talking from a global perspective now,
08:07
08:07 people looking in at the UK, also from
08:09
08:09 people here.
08:10
08:10 >> Well, I think this is the frustration.
08:12
08:12 We have done a lot of myth busting over
08:13
08:13 the last five years. You know, first
08:15
08:15 thing I’d say is that we were the
08:17
08:17 largest equity market in Europe prior to
08:19
08:19 Brexit because we were the largest
08:21
08:21 capital market center in the single
08:23
08:23 market. Soon as we left the single
08:24
08:24 market, it was not inevitable that we
08:26
08:26 would still be the largest equity market
08:28
08:28 in Europe. We still are, you know, and
08:31
08:31 we have been for the last 5 years. Um,
08:33
08:33 we are the most successful equity market
08:35
08:35 in Europe by any measure. Um, and we’re
08:37
08:37 the only venue in the world that is
08:40
08:40 worldleading in all three of the asset
08:42
08:42 classes that venues tend to have. So
08:44
08:44 we’re the largest equity market in
08:45
08:45 Europe with the second largest debt
08:46
08:46 listing market in the world and the
08:48
08:48 largest closedended market in the world.
08:49
08:49 We now have a private securities market,
08:51
08:51 the only regulated primary market that
08:53
08:53 does have one. Uh and we now also do
08:55
08:55 onchain capital raising for private
08:56
08:56 funds. So we are genuinely a multiasset
08:60
09:00 and multi-product venue in a way that no
09:02
09:02 one else is. But I think the other thing
09:04
09:04 that people forget is they assume the
09:05
09:05 grass is always greener elsewhere. And
09:08
09:08 we’ve done a lot of debunking of the
09:09
09:09 experience of going to other venues. And
09:12
09:12 the simple reality is that for most
09:14
09:14 British companies that have gone to the
09:15
09:15 US, the performance has been absolutely
09:17
09:17 woeful. Um, there have only been 20
09:20
09:20 British companies that have gone to the
09:21
09:21 US since 2014 that have raised over 100
09:24
09:24 million. Of those, and the numbers keep
09:26
09:26 changing, but I think we’re now in the
09:28
09:28 13 have delisted.
09:30
09:30 Five are trading down. Only three are
09:32
09:32 trading up. And those that are trading
09:33
09:33 down are trading down by over 80%.
09:36
09:36 And yet that’s not what you would think
09:39
09:39 >> if you kind of listened to the
09:40
09:40 newspapers
09:41
09:41 >> or read the newspapers. And the simple
09:42
09:42 reality is that now I mean all the
09:45
09:45 British founders I speak to say actually
09:47
09:47 if I can get the best of both so I can
09:49
09:49 actually be in the UK be in the footsie
09:51
09:51 get the valuations that I’ll get here um
09:53
09:53 and I’m a certain size up to 50 billion
09:55
09:55 then I’m going to stay in the UK.
09:57
09:57 >> So so
09:58
09:58 >> very very different. So, so let’s talk
09:60
09:60 more broadly because clearly running the
10:02
10:02 London Stock Exchange but you have a
10:04
10:04 wider role within the ecosystem, right?
10:06
10:06 What do you say to the rumor if you like
10:09
10:09 that says the most ambitious British
10:12
10:12 innovators simply can’t raise the amount
10:16
10:16 of money they need here in the UK? They
10:18
10:18 have to look further a field. What do
10:20
10:20 you say to that?
10:21
10:21 >> Well, I think two things. Historically,
10:24
10:24 it has been true that as a private
10:26
10:26 company, the capital that they’ve been
10:28
10:28 getting access to as great British
10:29
10:29 innovators has not been coming from the
10:31
10:31 UK. [snorts] That is one of the biggest
10:33
10:33 things we’ve been trying to fix over the
10:34
10:34 last 5 years. The perversity is as
10:37
10:37 having no shortage of great companies
10:38
10:38 and no shortage of capital, but a
10:40
10:40 shortage of capital we’ve been spending
10:42
10:42 on ourselves and a shortage of capital
10:44
10:44 that was structured as risk capital is
10:45
10:45 not lost on anyone, particularly not me.
10:47
10:47 It’s one of the things I’ve been
10:49
10:49 shouting about for the last five years.
10:50
10:50 Um but that is changing with the
10:53
10:53 creation of the mansion house compact,
10:54
10:54 the mansion house accords.
10:56
10:56 >> And just pausing briefly, this is the
10:58
10:58 agreement by which some of the biggest
10:60
10:60 pension funds have agreed to invest in
11:03
11:03 >> private equities.
11:04
11:04 >> Yes. And this was a big change. I mean
11:06
11:06 in in Canada and Australia, they’ve been
11:08
11:08 doing it for a very long time,
11:09
11:09 >> right?
11:09
11:09 >> Um
11:10
11:10 >> and those numbers have gone in a very
11:12
11:12 very backwards direction. Just give us a
11:14
11:14 sense of that journey. I know we have we
11:16
11:16 hope we’ve turned a corner. Just give us
11:18
11:18 a sense of how it’s changed. So the UK
11:20
11:20 also had a very discreet set of
11:22
11:22 circumstances in its pension industry.
11:24
11:24 So we used to have huge DB schemes,
11:28
11:28 corporate schemes, open-ended mutualized
11:30
11:30 risk takingaking um that was invested
11:32
11:32 over 50% in UK companies predominantly
11:35
11:35 listed on the London stock exchange.
11:37
11:37 >> Then um after we had the mirror um
11:39
11:39 pension scandal, u parliament then
11:41
11:41 legislated to say you have to bring
11:43
11:43 those DB schemes on balance sheet and
11:45
11:45 you have to put the matching adjustment
11:46
11:46 through the P&L. So I’m old enough to
11:48
11:48 remember when we used to refer to
11:49
11:49 British Airways as a small airline with
11:51
11:51 a large pension fund attached and no CEO
11:54
11:54 worth their salt wants to be accountable
11:57
11:57 for the performance of their pension
11:58
11:58 their corporate pension fund every
11:60
11:60 quarter rather than their underlying
12:01
12:01 business. So we shuttered those DB
12:03
12:03 schemes which let me repeat are the best
12:06
12:06 form of mutualized risk-taking any
12:08
12:08 country can have. Um and we derisked
12:11
12:11 them. So they bought bonds and there was
12:13
12:13 no incentive to maximize the return from
12:15
12:15 that massive pot of capital. So that was
12:18
12:18 the first thing we did which was an act
12:20
12:20 of self harm as a nation.
12:21
12:21 >> In other words, as a byproduct, vastly
12:22
12:22 less cash going from those pension
12:24
12:24 schemes into companies in shares.
12:26
12:26 >> Yes. But actually vastly fewer returns
12:28
12:28 from those scheme that money in general
12:30
12:30 that could have redounded to the UK
12:32
12:32 economy. actually what you want and and
12:33
12:33 maybe the vision of the future for me is
12:36
12:36 that actually we have a very actively
12:38
12:38 engaged population in the UK that is in
12:41
12:41 that is in an economy that is growing
12:43
12:43 where wage growth is growing so savings
12:45
12:45 rates can grow where people then invest
12:47
12:47 in recycling their money into great
12:49
12:49 British companies and people walk that
12:51
12:51 bit taller at the end of every day if
12:52
12:52 those companies have done well because
12:54
12:54 the house or the car that they want to
12:56
12:56 buy at the end of the year can be that
12:57
12:57 bit bigger than it was than they were
12:59
12:59 initially planning because they’re the
13:01
13:01 same way round the success of the
13:03
13:03 companies.
13:03
13:03 >> I have specifically chosen numbers 1 to
13:06
13:06 10 for you in more of a quick fire.
13:08
13:08 >> Go for it. Dame Julia. So, if you’d like
13:09
13:09 to pick a number for me. 1 to 10.
13:11
13:11 >> Three.
13:13
13:13 >> Ah, which industry do you hope will
13:17
13:17 reinvent itself?
13:18
13:18 >> Oo,
13:21
13:21 that’s a good one. There’s quite a long
13:23
13:23 list. [laughter]
13:24
13:24 >> Go on. Um
13:27
13:27 I mean in the context of the current
13:28
13:28 debate I think there’s quite a lot to be
13:30
13:30 said about social media platforms
13:32
13:32 reinventing themselves as an industry.
13:34
13:34 Um I hope financial services is on the
13:37
13:37 road to starting to not so much as the
13:40
13:40 core things that it’s done but in how it
13:42
13:42 interacts with its clients and how it
13:45
13:45 interacts with the general public.
13:47
13:47 >> That’s interesting. So say a bit more
13:48
13:48 because from one angle you might see
13:50
13:50 especially London as a sort of epicenter
13:53
13:53 for fintech for example and on a uh
13:57
13:57 self- congratulating day the industry
13:59
13:59 itself might see itself as slightly sort
14:01
14:01 of self-actualized you know have we
14:03
14:03 reached the pinnacle but you’re
14:04
14:04 >> you’re you’re giving them a pep talk
14:06
14:06 >> well I think if you look at how I mean
14:09
14:09 the fintech industry in the UK is one of
14:12
14:12 the proofs that we have all the
14:13
14:13 ingredients you know that our bakeoff
14:15
14:15 tent is built you know But if you look
14:18
14:18 at some of those products and services,
14:19
14:19 they’re actually designed around
14:21
14:21 enabling consumers to engage more
14:24
14:24 actively with the product.
14:27
14:27 >> That kind of suggests that if that’s
14:28
14:28 what the fintech piece of it is doing,
14:31
14:31 how do we do that with the rest of it,
14:33
14:33 >> you know, and and how do we facilitate
14:35
14:35 people engaging having access to their
14:37
14:37 products, engaging with them, having
14:39
14:39 access to the advice, feeling ownership
14:42
14:42 in a way that they might not have done
14:44
14:44 before. So I think it’s almost about
14:46
14:46 taking what’s already been demonstrated
14:48
14:48 about the engagement that people have
14:50
14:50 the capacity to have if they have the
14:51
14:51 tools and saying how do we spread that
14:53
14:53 more actively across the industry?
14:55
14:55 >> Another number between 1 and 10.
14:58
14:58 >> Eight.
15:00
15:00 >> So this is about an age of AI.
15:04
15:04 >> Which skill do you think becomes more
15:07
15:07 valuable in an AI age?
15:09
15:09 >> I’m not certain there’s only one. Um, I
15:13
15:13 think the ability to actually understand
15:15
15:15 things from the bottom up, to be able to
15:18
15:18 scrutinize and understand what the AI
15:20
15:20 has actually generated,
15:22
15:22 um, is crucial. You know, the thing that
15:25
15:25 I worry about is that people skip that
15:27
15:27 understanding layer because the AI will
15:30
15:30 tell them enough of it at the beginning.
15:33
15:33 But when you’re really building agents
15:35
15:35 and when you’re really using these
15:37
15:37 models to their extreme, you still have
15:40
15:40 to understand the core fundaments of the
15:43
15:43 science or of the specialism that you’re
15:46
15:46 focused on.
15:46
15:46 >> Yeah. Such such a huge point. So we use
15:48
15:48 it the challenge.
15:49
15:49 >> Yeah. We use it as a proxy for depth. It
15:51
15:51 becomes our touchstone that it has
15:53
15:53 understood, therefore we understand
15:55
15:55 >> and there’s no there’s no substitute for
15:57
15:57 actually having that depth as a human
15:58
15:58 being. And I think that’s where we will
16:01
16:01 find some challenges if we’re not
16:02
16:02 careful.
16:03
16:03 >> How do you create time for that? You’re
16:04
16:04 leading uh the London Stock Exchange.
16:07
16:07 You still need to understand, you will
16:09
16:09 still need to dive, you know.
16:10
16:10 >> I mean, I I guess the benefit is I I
16:13
16:13 learned a lot of this industry before we
16:14
16:14 had it.
16:15
16:15 >> Yes.
16:15
16:15 >> So, but again, it’s it’s there’s no
16:18
16:18 substitute for co-piloting. I mean,
16:20
16:20 there’s a reason that phrase is used,
16:21
16:21 but but actually co-piloting with it,
16:23
16:23 you know. So, I use it all the time, but
16:26
16:26 I also scrutinize it. Um, I cannot run
16:30
16:30 an agent without being able to also
16:32
16:32 understand exactly how it came to a
16:34
16:34 conclusion. Well, not necessarily how,
16:35
16:35 but exactly what conclusion, what what
16:37
16:37 barriers I’ve got around it, how it’s
16:39
16:39 using it, and audit its efficacy the
16:41
16:41 whole time.
16:42
16:42 >> Now, I don’t want to be indiscreet. I’m
16:44
16:44 pleased you’ve said that you use it all
16:45
16:45 the time. It’s become a bit trendy,
16:47
16:47 particularly recently, for very senior
16:49
16:49 leaders, to say, “I don’t use it at all
16:51
16:51 myself.” um without portraying state
16:54
16:54 secrets. An example of how as a co-pilot
16:57
16:57 it aids you.
16:58
16:58 >> Well, I just think there are different
16:59
16:59 ways of using it. So, there’s there’s
17:01
17:01 ways of using it to just be more
17:03
17:03 efficient about certain tasks that
17:05
17:05 actually it can do reasonably well. You
17:07
17:07 still need to have the scrutiny there.
17:09
17:09 Um there’s the efficiency it can
17:11
17:11 generate in code generation, that kind
17:13
17:13 of thing. So, I’m not necessarily
17:14
17:14 writing the code, but I’m working with
17:15
17:15 lots of teams who are. But again, my
17:18
17:18 question is what’s the guardrails?
17:20
17:20 What’s the checking? what’s the
17:21
17:21 auditing, what’s the testing process
17:23
17:23 that we have around that. And then
17:24
17:24 there’s when you start getting into the
17:25
17:25 agent piece, you know, which is how you
17:29
17:29 actually building agents to run various
17:31
17:31 processes that you operate because
17:34
17:34 that’s where in a sense a lot of the the
17:36
17:36 real efficiency in in my world can come.
17:39
17:39 Um, and this is where the some of the
17:40
17:40 future of where we’re going with
17:41
17:41 markets. The way I describe it is I send
17:43
17:43 inanimate objects down vaguely
17:45
17:45 intelligent pipes right now. That’s what
17:46
17:46 running an analog market even at
17:48
17:48 nanconds and picoscond speed. That’s
17:50
17:50 what we do when we move to a world world
17:54
17:54 of smart contracts and tokenization,
17:55
17:55 digitization, true digitization.
17:58
17:58 You animate that token with all the
18:00
18:00 information it knows so that it can go
18:02
18:02 legally anywhere in time and space and
18:04
18:04 then allow it to go there. That means
18:07
18:07 you can actually have ad hoc compliance,
18:09
18:09 not post hoc compliance. An awful lot of
18:11
18:11 what we do is we do something and then
18:13
18:13 check it worked afterwards
18:14
18:14 >> rather than nothing being able to move
18:17
18:17 unless it moves through the right gates.
18:19
18:19 Now the ability to program and make
18:22
18:22 programmable that sort of action whether
18:24
18:24 it’s a control suite or a token in a
18:26
18:26 market is phenomenally valuable. Um and
18:30
18:30 that’s the place that ultimately we will
18:32
18:32 be moving towards but I’ve still got to
18:34
18:34 understand what are all the controls it
18:35
18:35 has to go through. able to think about
18:38
18:38 what the market integrity implications
18:39
18:39 are of a specific market design and then
18:42
18:42 check that whatever agent is built does
18:44
18:44 that
18:45
18:45 >> right and then presumably already um AIs
18:49
18:49 are already buying and selling shares
18:52
18:52 >> well they have been for years the thing
18:54
18:54 it was called machine learning before
18:55
18:55 yeah
18:56
18:56 >> you know we’ve been using algorithms and
18:57
18:57 trading for a very very long time half
18:59
18:59 the reason we don’t have open outcry on
19:01
19:01 the floor of the exchange is because we
19:03
19:03 operate at latency speeds that no human
19:06
19:06 being would be able to insert put
19:07
19:07 themselves into the process. So machines
19:09
19:09 have been driving trading activity on
19:11
19:11 equity markets around the world for a
19:13
19:13 very long time. Um this isn’t new.
19:16
19:16 >> Yeah.
19:16
19:16 >> You know, and so I think sometimes we
19:18
19:18 can think of this as newer than it is.
19:21
19:21 >> Yeah.
19:21
19:21 >> The other issue, the big question I
19:23
19:23 think for everybody is just it’s a data
19:25
19:25 in data out rubbish in rubbish out
19:27
19:27 question. you know um one of the most
19:30
19:30 important things is really to understand
19:31
19:31 what data is informing the decisions
19:34
19:34 that these tools are making and is it
19:36
19:36 good quality data you know so we think
19:38
19:38 through all of those lenses in terms of
19:40
19:40 how we how we use it so I’m not saying
19:43
19:43 no I don’t use it anymore I use it for
19:45
19:45 certain tasks
19:46
19:46 >> so lots to unpack there except when I
19:49
19:49 asked you about the skill um that
19:51
19:51 becomes more valuable in an age of AI
19:53
19:53 you said um there’s more than one which
19:55
19:55 would be a second
19:56
19:56 >> so Look, I’m a sociologist by
19:58
19:58 background. Um, and I’ve always said
20:00
20:00 that it we you talk about people going
20:03
20:03 out of their lane. I I’m out of my lane
20:05
20:05 being in finance compared to being in
20:07
20:07 sociology. But to me, the markets have
20:10
20:10 always been sociology or bull maths.
20:11
20:11 It’s about how large groups of people
20:13
20:13 organize themselves, how they think, the
20:15
20:15 heristic shortcuts they sort of tell
20:17
20:17 themselves, how they respond to
20:19
20:19 information that’s coming in externally.
20:21
20:21 Actually my job in a sense quite early
20:23
20:23 on in my career was to say I think the
20:26
20:26 market will respond this way in these
20:28
20:28 circumstances and quite often you
20:30
20:30 wouldn’t have kind of always up or
20:32
20:32 always down but actually you could get a
20:34
20:34 sense of how it organized itself and
20:36
20:36 even sitting on trading floors you would
20:39
20:39 you would feel these rumbles of kind of
20:42
20:42 noise and human emotion as they moved up
20:44
20:44 and down as the traders responded to
20:46
20:46 different information. You know it’s all
20:48
20:48 sociology. at all. How people organize
20:50
20:50 themselves and being a conduct regulator
20:52
20:52 is the same thing. You know, how people
20:54
20:54 choose to behave every day when they go
20:55
20:55 up down the lift to their to their desk
20:58
20:58 is is a sociological exercise.
20:60
20:60 >> I wanted to delve a bit more on this
21:02
21:02 because one thing we talk about a lot is
21:04
21:04 taking us to the edge of how things are
21:07
21:07 changing. So, in terms of London Stock
21:08
21:08 Exchange, you know, um a lot of it, if
21:11
21:11 we stand on our balcony today, is
21:12
21:12 unrecognizable, but the core of what’s
21:14
21:14 happening, as you’ve already hinted, has
21:16
21:16 stayed the same. So
21:17
21:17 >> give us a glimpse of what’s coming.
21:19
21:19 >> Well, I mentioned it before about the
21:21
21:21 idea that as we start digitizing and
21:23
21:23 tokenizing things. We have the
21:25
21:25 opportunity to run our markets in a very
21:27
21:27 different way with exactly the same
21:29
21:29 purpose but actually in a way that gets
21:32
21:32 rid of a lot of the friction and reduces
21:34
21:34 a lot of the compliance costs and means
21:36
21:36 that things can operate in a way that is
21:37
21:37 actually better. So what I’m focused on
21:39
21:39 as much as all the reform agenda in the
21:41
21:41 UK so that our pension funds, our own
21:43
21:43 domestic capital is backing our own
21:45
21:45 great companies is also on the next
21:47
21:47 generation of our digitization journey.
21:49
21:49 Um how do we make sure that we’re using
21:52
21:52 this technology in the best possible way
21:53
21:53 to make regulated markets more
21:55
21:55 effective. This isn’t talking about
21:57
21:57 crypto necessarily. This is talking
21:58
21:58 about the tokenization of real world
21:60
21:60 assets so that they are more accessible
22:02
22:02 because I’ I’d love a day where somebody
22:05
22:05 could log into their wallet and they may
22:07
22:07 actually have set that wallet up because
22:08
22:08 they bought crypto, but then they go,
22:10
22:10 “Okay, well, I’ve just bought that
22:11
22:11 product from that company. I’ve just
22:12
22:12 seen it’s listed on AIM. I think they’re
22:15
22:15 great. I want to buy some of that myself
22:17
22:17 and do so in seconds.”
22:20
22:20 >> Right. So, you’re
22:21
22:21 >> all connects together at the end of the
22:22
22:22 day.
22:23
22:23 >> Right. And a a linking feature is trust.
22:27
22:27 >> Yes. And it’s a really interesting thin
22:29
22:29 end of a wedge for trust, isn’t it? To
22:30
22:30 buy something.
22:31
22:31 >> Yes. And that’s what people are doing. I
22:33
22:33 mean, if you think about some of the
22:34
22:34 first consumer protection laws that ever
22:36
22:36 created in the UK, it was create trust
22:38
22:38 in products and services. You know, that
22:41
22:41 was the point.
22:41
22:41 >> So, who ends up being the purveyors of
22:44
22:44 those marketplaces? Is it retail as we
22:46
22:46 know it? Well, our our job is to be the
22:49
22:49 purveyor of that marketplace as I mean
22:51
22:51 if if our job is to connect those who
22:53
22:53 have capital with those who need it. It
22:55
22:55 is to turn a company into a security
22:60
22:60 that can be bought and sold and then to
23:02
23:02 maximize the access of people to be able
23:04
23:04 to buy that um at whatever point they
23:07
23:07 need however they can.
23:08
23:08 >> So how close are we to this then? So
23:10
23:10 what you’re describing here is on
23:12
23:12 tokenization. Just as you can buy from a
23:14
23:14 company, you can buy a piece of that.
23:16
23:16 Where are we? do onchain capital raising
23:18
23:18 for private funds at the exchange right
23:19
23:19 now.
23:20
23:20 >> Right. So this is through I would have
23:21
23:21 got to know as something called Pisces.
23:23
23:23 >> No, this is this is even before that.
23:25
23:25 >> Oh, I see.
23:25
23:25 >> Um so we are building that technology at
23:28
23:28 the moment. Um and then moving through
23:31
23:31 the evolution of it. Um, and Pisces is
23:34
23:34 is a bit of that because actually the
23:37
23:37 idea that you can have a marketplace
23:39
23:39 where you can I’d say toggle on and
23:41
23:41 toggle off the disclosure requirements
23:43
23:43 and the information and the access to a
23:45
23:45 market but still have a marketplace for
23:47
23:47 it is exactly where tokenization can be
23:50
23:50 most valuable.
23:50
23:50 >> Right. And just to be clear when I say
23:52
23:52 pis this is an opportunity for private
23:54
23:54 companies not listed companies
23:55
23:55 >> to have access to liquidity. Yeah.
23:56
23:56 >> Right. So it’s to access those much
23:58
23:58 bigger pools of cash
23:59
23:59 >> that they need to grow
24:00
24:00 >> and and also to for me the most
24:03
24:03 important thing about the private
24:04
24:04 securities market which is the Pisces
24:06
24:06 market for the London stock exchange is
24:08
24:08 it is to maximize the chance that great
24:10
24:10 companies can start here grow here scale
24:12
24:12 here and stay here
24:12
24:12 >> right
24:13
24:13 >> and too many times our great companies
24:15
24:15 have got to a certain size and then
24:17
24:17 because the founder or the existing
24:19
24:19 investors have said well I needed need
24:21
24:21 liquidity they’ve sold out to a trade
24:23
24:23 cell for example and then they’ve
24:24
24:24 disappeared they’ve been absorbed into a
24:26
24:26 greater or very often not a domestic
24:28
24:28 company
24:29
24:29 >> and then all the ecosystem that grows up
24:31
24:31 around that UK company gets gradually
24:33
24:33 lost and that chance of a UK company
24:35
24:35 being globally consequential dies as
24:37
24:37 well.
24:37
24:37 >> That’s why I think it’s so important
24:39
24:39 honestly that you are super connected
24:41
24:41 across the ecosystem because if you just
24:43
24:43 stayed in your lane you wouldn’t care.
24:44
24:44 >> No, but but the us is if we take that
24:47
24:47 purpose of statement of connecting those
24:49
24:49 who have it with those who need it in
24:50
24:50 service of an objective what do you do?
24:52
24:52 That’s that’s everything we’ve done in
24:54
24:54 the last five years is say we should
24:56
24:56 imagine our role through the lens of
24:59
24:59 that statement and if it meets that
25:00
25:00 statement we should do it in the context
25:02
25:02 of real world assets that enable
25:04
25:04 companies to get access to liquidity and
25:05
25:05 investors buy stakes in them. And so the
25:07
25:07 private securities market was designed
25:09
25:09 to maximize the chance that founders and
25:11
25:11 employees and private companies can get
25:13
25:13 access to liquidity to stay in the game
25:16
25:16 so that they can keep on building these
25:18
25:18 great companies that they built, stay
25:20
25:20 with it, be rewarded for everything they
25:22
25:22 built to date, but not feel they have to
25:24
25:24 go to a trade sale or even an IPO ahead
25:26
25:26 of their time. Yeah, we maximize the
25:28
25:28 chance that these companies can be
25:29
25:29 successful in the UK and scale here and
25:32
25:32 stay here.
25:33
25:33 >> Right. I want to be even clearer on that
25:35
25:35 digitization tokenization bit of the
25:38
25:38 journey. Are you saying that that is
25:40
25:40 currently out in the market if you like
25:43
25:43 or it’s still sort of in the workshop?
25:45
25:45 >> It’s being built and we are using it and
25:47
25:47 it is actually being applied in the
25:49
25:49 context of private funds. Um and and
25:52
25:52 this is an evolution that’s taking place
25:53
25:53 in various big markets around the world.
25:56
25:56 Um and we’re seeking to do that as much
25:58
25:58 as anyone else is. Um, but I think the
26:01
26:01 UK has a great opportunity actually
26:03
26:03 because we are multiasset in a way that
26:05
26:05 most other markets are not because we
26:08
26:08 have the nature of the regulation and
26:09
26:09 the rule of law that we do because we
26:11
26:11 have an ecosystem that actually move
26:12
26:12 quite quickly
26:14
26:14 >> then I think we’ve got a real
26:15
26:15 opportunity.
26:16
26:16 >> Do one final quickfire my quick fires
26:18
26:18 which always turn into another five
26:19
26:19 minutes. Go on. One final number.
26:22
26:22 >> Uh, nine.
26:25
26:25 >> What’s a question that more leaders
26:27
26:27 should be asking themselves? Well, as a
26:29
26:29 statement I always say that they should
26:31
26:31 tell themselves. Um, they should tell
26:33
26:33 themselves this is not about you.
26:35
26:35 >> You know, I do the vast majority of all
26:38
26:38 the work I do through other people. My
26:40
26:40 job is to create the environment where
26:41
26:41 they can thrive and where they know the
26:43
26:43 strategy they have to pursue. It isn’t
26:45
26:45 about me in a sense. It’s it’s you
26:47
26:47 should aspire to be obsolete as a leader
26:49
26:49 because actually you’ve created a team
26:52
26:52 >> that could do it
26:53
26:53 >> anyway. Um,
26:55
26:55 >> aspiring to be obsolete takes a bit of
26:57
26:57 courage though,
26:58
26:58 >> does it? I I don’t see it that way
27:00
27:00 because I think
27:03
27:03 I think I’ve got a duty of care to any
27:05
27:05 organization I’m in. I have a sense that
27:09
27:09 I mean my entire career has been about
27:10
27:10 answering exam questions. At some point
27:12
27:12 another one will manifest. But I want to
27:14
27:14 know that the people who are going to
27:16
27:16 kind of take over the thing that I’ve
27:17
27:17 just spent years of my life and passion
27:20
27:20 project on care as much want to do it
27:23
27:23 and would know what to do with it. you
27:25
27:25 know, why don’t you want to create that
27:28
27:28 succession?
27:29
27:29 >> Well, I think what you’re saying makes
27:30
27:30 complete sense. I also worry that or I
27:33
27:33 feel that some would hear obsolete and
27:36
27:36 feel that it’s a synonym for redundant.
27:39
27:39 >> No, it’s a No, it isn’t. I I get that. I
27:43
27:43 mean, I we we always talk about this is
27:44
27:44 the capital markets industry task force
27:46
27:46 that I chair. Our ambition is to be
27:48
27:48 obsolete. In other words, we’ve done all
27:49
27:49 the things that were on the to-do list
27:50
27:50 and we don’t actually need to do
27:52
27:52 anything else. You know, the change has
27:54
27:54 been done. Um, I think it’s it it really
27:58
27:58 boils down to it’s not all about you,
28:00
28:00 >> right?
28:01
28:01 >> You know, that that’s the most important
28:03
28:03 thing.
28:03
28:03 >> This is really helpful. I think um
28:05
28:05 hopefully for our uh listener too,
28:07
28:07 certainly for me, it’s that idea that
28:08
28:08 your obsolescence
28:10
28:10 is a journey.
28:12
28:12 >> It’s not going to crop up today.
28:13
28:13 >> No,
28:14
28:14 >> but it is over there.
28:15
28:15 >> Yeah.
28:16
28:16 >> And don’t be afraid to accept that it is
28:18
28:18 over there and you are heading right
28:19
28:19 towards it.
28:19
28:19 >> Yeah. But it’s because your team is
28:22
28:22 brilliant and they can do it. And
28:24
28:24 actually it for for me the growth of the
28:27
28:27 team I work with has always only done
28:29
28:29 one thing. It’s freed me up to have time
28:32
28:32 to focus on other things.
28:33
28:33 >> Yeah.
28:33
28:33 >> You know and I always I always say we
28:36
28:36 have a rule in the exchange. If you’re
28:37
28:37 the most senior person who only does
28:39
28:39 that job, you’re responsible for it
28:40
28:40 strategy. Um and that goes all the way
28:43
28:43 down through the organization. And if if
28:45
28:45 I’m as the most senior person running on
28:47
28:47 the stock exchange, not thinking about
28:48
28:48 where it’s going next, then who is,
28:52
28:52 >> right?
28:52
28:52 >> You know, and so the at the very least
28:55
28:55 the job of my team is to run the shop so
28:57
28:57 that I can spend my time thinking about
28:58
28:58 where we’re going to be in five years
28:60
28:60 time and plotting our route to get
29:01
29:01 there. So I’ve done my job if they can
29:05
29:05 do that so I can focus on this.
29:06
29:06 >> I love it.
29:07
29:07 >> I’ve done my job even better if most of
29:09
29:09 my management team are now kind of there
29:11
29:11 with me and their team are running the
29:13
29:13 shop. But also, you’ve activated brains
29:16
29:16 throughout the organization. You haven’t
29:18
29:18 just said the brain lives up in this big
29:20
29:20 office.
29:20
29:20 >> I’ve got loads of them. And and that’s
29:21
29:21 the point. If
29:23
29:23 >> why only work through one person?
29:25
29:25 >> My job is to maximize the efficacy of
29:28
29:28 everybody I work with because they’re
29:31
29:31 going to be a dance site more effective
29:32
29:32 than just me.
29:33
29:33 >> Right. So, here’s a different curveball
29:34
29:34 challenge. I know it’s one you’ve faced
29:37
29:37 um over the years. We’ve both been
29:38
29:38 involved in various different programs
29:39
29:39 that mentor uh the next generation. when
29:42
29:42 you go into let’s say a school for
29:44
29:44 example and then you have to think of a
29:45
29:45 different way or presumably uh a way to
29:48
29:48 frame to capture imagination how do you
29:50
29:50 connect with that
29:52
29:52 >> well I think the first thing is to
29:54
29:54 really explain what markets do I mean
29:57
29:57 there’s a brilliant lady who worksman
29:58
29:58 she made a point in a meeting once that
30:00
30:00 um we have this weird thing in the UK
30:02
30:02 where we think of a company as a company
30:04
30:04 a real thing that makes real products
30:05
30:05 employs real people pays pays real taxes
30:08
30:08 then we turn it into a financial
30:09
30:09 instrument and we list it as a share on
30:11
30:11 the socket exchange and then all of a
30:12
30:12 sudden we think of it as this alien big
30:14
30:14 bad thing you know
30:15
30:15 >> and actually the point is
30:18
30:18 if for for kids take take environment I
30:21
30:21 mean huge numbers of people totally
30:23
30:23 rightly as do I care passionately about
30:25
30:25 what’s happening with climate change one
30:27
30:27 of the biggest things that we’ve done at
30:28
30:28 the exchange is we’ve actually been
30:29
30:29 sustainable sock exchange of the year
30:31
30:31 multiple years often in a row um because
30:34
30:34 we have more products that actually help
30:36
30:36 investors understand the environmental
30:38
30:38 impact of companies
30:39
30:39 >> but it’s also attracting capital into
30:42
30:42 those companies that are working in the
30:44
30:44 green economy. And it isn’t it’s saying
30:46
30:46 actually, you know, we care about the
30:47
30:47 same thing that you do. We care about
30:48
30:48 the long-term sustainability of this
30:50
30:50 planet. We want to make sure that money
30:52
30:52 is going into those companies that are
30:54
30:54 genuinely trying to solve those
30:55
30:55 problems. So don’t think of this as an
30:57
30:57 alien thing. If there’s something you’re
30:59
30:59 passionate about, these markets are a
31:02
31:02 vehicle for you to achieve that very
31:04
31:04 thing by leaning into and using those as
31:07
31:07 forces for good. Well, I mean, I do have
31:10
31:10 a little bit, as you know, of of a
31:12
31:12 passion for this as a theme. I happen to
31:15
31:15 believe that if you spend more time
31:16
31:16 connecting some of our inventors and
31:18
31:18 entrepreneurs with the next generation
31:20
31:20 of classrooms, they have a huge amount
31:23
31:23 in common.
31:23
31:23 >> Yes.
31:24
31:24 >> And if we did that more often, maybe we
31:25
31:25 wouldn’t see business so negatively.
31:27
31:27 >> No, I agree. I agree. I But I think it’s
31:29
31:29 all through the lens of problem solving.
31:31
31:31 >> You know, the next generation spends so
31:32
31:32 much of their time problem solving. Um,
31:35
31:35 and most companies are trying to solve
31:37
31:37 people’s problems. you know, and
31:39
31:39 actually it’s an inherently human trait
31:41
31:41 to want to do that. Um, and bringing
31:44
31:44 together the imagination
31:46
31:46 >> and actually the fierce urgency of now
31:48
31:48 that very often
31:50
31:50 >> younger people feel. You’re like, okay,
31:52
31:52 well, you may have done this older
31:53
31:53 people, but it’s on my watch it’s going
31:55
31:55 to happen,
31:55
31:55 >> right?
31:56
31:56 >> How do I get your capital mobilized
31:58
31:58 against my problem,
31:60
31:60 >> right?
32:00
32:00 >> So that it’s my when it becomes my
32:03
32:03 problem, it’s fixed.
32:03
32:03 >> This is exciting. So this is ringing in
32:06
32:06 my ears. I’ve had a conversation on this
32:08
32:08 podcast with Maggie Philin of Tomorrow’s
32:10
32:10 World about her charity, Teen Tech,
32:12
32:12 saying exactly this. Young people
32:14
32:14 lighting up by being presented with the
32:16
32:16 problems worth solving, their
32:18
32:18 imaginations roaring into life.
32:20
32:20 >> Yeah. And and trusted to and then
32:22
32:22 empowered to have the tools to actually
32:24
32:24 fix it.
32:24
32:24 >> Yeah. Um, final couple of questions.
32:28
32:28 Your future,
32:31
32:31 this is a curveball because we’ve not
32:33
32:33 talked about this. I’m fascinated, you
32:36
32:36 know, sociologist, regulator
32:39
32:39 >> running the London Stock Exchange.
32:42
32:42 >> Who knows what the future holds?
32:44
32:44 >> No idea. Genuinely don’t. And I’ve never
32:46
32:46 had a plan and don’t intend it. Um, my
32:49
32:49 entire career has been about answering
32:50
32:50 exam questions. I went into the city to
32:51
32:51 find out how Malawi operated in the
32:53
32:53 global economy because that was what my
32:54
32:54 postgraduate research was about and I
32:56
32:56 was not going to figure out the answer
32:57
32:57 sitting in the university library. Um,
32:59
32:59 and then every other part of my career
33:02
33:02 has been about an exam question that
33:03
33:03 sort of manifest in the kind of few
33:05
33:05 weeks or months before the move. Whether
33:08
33:08 that’s okay, I’ve advised clients for
33:09
33:09 seven years on how to do bond deals.
33:12
33:12 Could I do them myself? So, I’ve taught
33:13
33:13 the talk because I walked the walk. Was
33:15
33:15 it helping banks reify after the global
33:17
33:17 financial crisis? Was it kind of proving
33:19
33:19 that you could do investment banking
33:21
33:21 with good conduct and profitably at the
33:22
33:22 same time? Was it addressing this exam
33:24
33:24 question of how we help great companies
33:26
33:26 start grow scale and stay in the UK or
33:28
33:28 addressing the digitization challenge?
33:30
33:30 Those are the sort of exam questions
33:32
33:32 I’ve answered. I have no idea what the
33:34
33:34 next one is. No idea when it will come
33:36
33:36 up. Um I don’t mind.
33:38
33:38 >> So let’s see you um here’s hoping that
33:41
33:41 you remain in post and therefore not
33:43
33:43 available for the next exam question. If
33:46
33:46 you were because we’re a very uh we like
33:48
33:48 a challenge in the future forum
33:50
33:50 community. If you were to nail a exam
33:52
33:52 question uh to the uh to the door
33:55
33:55 somewhere in Patinosta Square
33:57
33:57 >> that you just think is worthy of the
33:60
33:60 great British imagination. What’s the
34:02
34:02 problem we all short ought to be
34:03
34:03 bringing our collective brains together
34:05
34:05 on right now? Ooh, at the moment the one
34:07
34:07 I’m most focused on is the exam question
34:10
34:10 I’m answering at the exchange, which is
34:11
34:11 how do we create the best possible
34:13
34:13 environment for great companies start
34:14
34:14 here, grow here, scale here, and stay
34:16
34:16 here,
34:16
34:16 >> and make sure our capital markets have
34:18
34:18 the best possible assets, our policy
34:19
34:19 holders, our pensioners, and our savers
34:21
34:21 to have enough money for life events in
34:22
34:22 old age. That is my current exam
34:24
34:24 question.
34:25
34:25 >> And but it kind of gets back to the
34:28
34:28 bakeoff bit, which is almost how do we
34:31
34:31 get out of our own way? We have so many
34:34
34:34 raw ingredients in this country that
34:36
34:36 most countries around the world would
34:37
34:37 die for. You know, really, really do. We
34:41
34:41 have all of the tools for our own
34:42
34:42 prosperity in our hands. How do we just
34:46
34:46 get that mixture baked in the right way?
34:50
34:50 Um because I fervently believe we can do
34:53
34:53 um but we spend a lot of time
34:56
34:56 kind of nickel and dimming the small
34:58
34:58 stuff or missing the wood for the trees
35:00
35:00 or whatever.
35:01
35:01 >> Yeah. and actually just saying, “Yeah,
35:03
35:03 no, how do we how do we really
35:06
35:06 understand our strengths, not talk
35:07
35:07 ourselves down as well,
35:09
35:09 >> and then make all of these ingredients
35:11
35:11 work in the right order?”
35:12
35:12 >> And one of the phrases I’ve started
35:14
35:14 using is in the Julia bingo is also we
35:18
35:18 need to stop throwing shade at ourselves
35:19
35:19 as a nation,
35:20
35:20 >> right?
35:20
35:20 >> And then being surprised when it’s a bit
35:22
35:22 dark and a bit chilly. You know, we we
35:24
35:24 do this a lot and it can become
35:26
35:26 self-fulfilling.
35:27
35:27 >> Yeah. And yet if you literally go around
35:29
35:29 this country meeting the entrepreneurs I
35:31
35:31 do, meeting the scientists out of
35:32
35:32 university, seeing the pools of capital
35:34
35:34 we’ve got available, knowing the
35:36
35:36 strength we have in our capital market,
35:39
35:39 we’ve got all of those tools.
35:40
35:40 >> I think I think all this joins up,
35:41
35:41 Julia. I do. I think there’s a beautiful
35:44
35:44 phrase speaking of wooden trees, you
35:45
35:45 might know it, which is uh if you want
35:47
35:47 to build a ship,
35:49
35:49 >> you know, don’t divide up the team and
35:52
35:52 tell them what to do. And the punchline
35:54
35:54 is teach them to yearn for the vast and
35:56
35:56 endless sea. Yeah,
35:58
35:58 >> I think it’s that thought of that,
36:01
36:01 >> not vision as much as um sight of what’s
36:04
36:04 out there.
36:05
36:05 >> Well, we have a phrase at the exchange
36:06
36:06 we use all the time which is start with
36:07
36:07 where you want to end up and work
36:08
36:08 backwards, not with where you are and
36:09
36:09 work forwards.
36:10
36:10 >> Because the minute you start with where
36:12
36:12 you are and work forwards, the first
36:13
36:13 constraint will knock you off course. If
36:16
36:16 you start with where you want to get to
36:17
36:17 and work backwards, then you, you know,
36:20
36:20 you’ve set yourself a big vision, but
36:21
36:21 it’s remarkable how quickly you get to
36:23
36:23 something that’s within sight of land.
36:25
36:25 And then you’ve just got a small hop.
36:27
36:27 [snorts] Um, and we do that all the time
36:29
36:29 when we’re setting strategy when we
36:30
36:30 build new markets. That’s what we do.
36:32
36:32 >> Final thought, we ask all of our guests
36:35
36:35 uh to send a memo to the future. So,
36:37
36:37 this could be maybe 10 years time, could
36:39
36:39 be to a future version of yourself, to a
36:41
36:41 future CEO.
36:43
36:43 turn to them and tell them what would
36:45
36:45 you say?
36:46
36:46 >> Well, I think I’d say to the future CEO
36:48
36:48 of London Stock Exchange, don’t ever
36:50
36:50 lose sight of the actual purpose of the
36:52
36:52 exchange.
36:54
36:54 Even if the technology is completely
36:56
36:56 changed, it will still be to connect
36:58
36:58 those who have capital with those who
36:60
36:60 need it in service of an objective.
37:02
37:02 >> Dame Julia Hoger, thank you for that
37:04
37:04 memo to the future. I think I’m right in
37:07
37:07 saying that the reason that those
37:08
37:08 traders were outside the coffee house in
37:10
37:10 the first place is that they’d been
37:12
37:12 asked to leave the Royal Exchange for
37:14
37:14 rowdiness.
37:14
37:14 >> We were an uncouthe.
37:26
37:26 >> So yes, the reason we’re not in the in
37:27
37:27 the Royal Exchange and we had to set up
37:29
37:29 our own stock exchange was because we
37:30
37:30 were a ratty bunch. I hope it’s a little
37:33
37:33 bit more civilized. Well, I think it is
37:35
37:35 a lot more civilized, but also, you
37:36
37:36 know, good mischief we can we can
37:38
37:38 tolerate.
37:39
37:39 >> Yes.
37:40
37:40 >> Well, thank you for what you’re doing.
37:41
37:41 Thank you for bringing people together.
37:43
37:43 You remain a brilliant sociologist, and
37:45
37:45 I’ve seen it firsthand in terms of how
37:48
37:48 much you care every time I’ve seen you
37:50
37:50 open or close the market. You care about
37:53
37:53 what happens in that building and the
37:55
37:55 ripples that go across the world from
37:58
37:58 it. Um, so it’s been absolute pleasure.
38:00
38:00 Dame Julia Hoget, thank you for joining
38:02
38:02 us on tomorrow. Thank you very much for
38:03
38:03 having me. So there we have somebody
38:05
38:05 leading one of our best known
38:08
38:08 institutions at a time of extraordinary
38:11
38:11 change really painting us a picture and
38:14
38:14 we went on quite a journey didn’t we
38:15
38:15 from the classrooms of today to the
38:18
38:18 boardrooms of tomorrow and that ability
38:20
38:20 to take a step back to say what are we
38:23
38:23 really here for and you might be leading
38:26
38:26 a fintech you might be in the boardroom
38:28
38:28 of a footy 100 but that idea that those
38:31
38:31 dots connect across centuries 300 und
38:34
38:34 years and counting is absolutely
38:36
38:36 fascinating. So, we often spend time
38:38
38:38 gazing into the future, but today
38:40
38:40 hopefully we’ve joined the dots across
38:42
38:42 uh several centuries. Very grateful to
38:44
38:44 Dame Julia Hogett for being our guest
38:46
38:46 today and I hope you’ve enjoyed our
38:48
38:48 conversation. Please do share it with
38:50
38:50 anyone you think should hear it. It’s
38:52
38:52 tomorrow. It’s the future forum podcast.
38:54
38:54 I’m Ollie Barrett. Thank you for
38:56
38:56 listening and until next time, goodbye.