00:00 I think that if you’re looking for a
00:01
00:01 reason to be optimistic about this
00:03
00:03 country’s future, this right here is one
00:05
00:05 of the reasons to be optimistic. I would
00:07
00:07 like universities to be platforms where
00:09
00:09 people get to, you know, flourish in the
00:11
00:11 thing that they’re really passionate and
00:12
00:12 and not narrowly forced down one route
00:16
00:16 because that’s the only route that’s
00:17
00:17 available. I think it’s really
00:18
00:18 important. I think we have to remain
00:20
00:20 ambitious. I think we have to we have to
00:23
00:23 continue enlisting people like you,
00:25
00:25 right? Who can see this isn’t just about
00:28
00:28 a university system that’s interested in
00:30
00:30 itself. This is national infrastructure
00:32
00:32 in which we all have a stake and if we
00:34
00:34 want to be ambitious a country if we’re
00:36
00:36 not prepared to give up on the idea of
00:38
00:38 having influence in the world. We we
00:41
00:41 have to stay ambitious. I think that’s
00:43
00:43 going to be our challenge as leaders.
00:45
00:45 And if you are exhausted by the effort
00:48
00:48 of doing that for a decade, go and have
00:50
00:50 a cup of tea and keep going.
00:58
00:58 Hello and welcome to Tomorrow, the
01:00
01:00 Future Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett
01:03
01:03 and as we hope you know by now, Future
01:05
01:05 Forum is all about bringing together
01:07
01:07 very different people from completely
01:10
01:10 different industries to shape the future
01:12
01:12 together. Our guest today knows all
01:15
01:15 about that. Why? Because universities
01:19
01:19 are extraordinary places. They educate
01:22
01:22 millions of people. They produce
01:24
01:24 research. They create companies. They
01:27
01:27 train the next generation of engineers,
01:30
01:30 scientists, teachers, and they shape the
01:32
01:32 towns and cities around them. Our guest
01:36
01:36 runs Universities UK as its chief
01:39
01:39 executive. And so, it’s a pleasure to
01:40
01:40 say Vivian Stern. Welcome to tomorrow.
01:44
01:44 >> Thank you very much. Thanks for having
01:45
01:45 me.
01:45
01:45 >> Really looking forward to this
01:47
01:47 conversation. Vivian, uh all our guests
01:49
01:49 get the first uh question uh always the
01:53
01:53 same which is look into the future and
01:56
01:56 give us a glimpse. What do you see,
01:57
01:57 Vivian? Well, look, I was in I one of
01:60
01:60 the brilliant things about my job is I
02:01
02:01 get to kind of go around universities
02:03
02:03 all over the UK and um about a month and
02:07
02:07 a half ago I was in um the University of
02:09
02:09 Strath Clyde and for the first time I
02:12
02:12 held a quantum device. held a little
02:14
02:14 sort of matchbox- sized uh plastic case
02:17
02:17 in which some sort of witchcraft was
02:19
02:19 happening and uh the poor folk in the um
02:22
02:22 in the laboratory uh who were sort of
02:25
02:25 working on this technology which is sort
02:26
02:26 of at the edge of almost uh on the point
02:28
02:28 of being commercialized were trying to
02:30
02:30 explain to me what this device could do
02:32
02:32 and effectively it’s sort of measuring
02:34
02:34 minute changes in electromagnetic fields
02:37
02:37 and I saw I saw for the first time a
02:41
02:41 fuzzy edge of something that is coming
02:42
02:42 towards us faster than we perhaps
02:45
02:45 recognize, which is going to change the
02:47
02:47 world around us in a way that I think
02:48
02:48 we’re beginning to experience with AI.
02:50
02:50 That’s the huge privilege of my job. You
02:51
02:51 can sort of see things before they’re
02:53
02:53 really born and um sometimes it’s very
02:57
02:57 alarming and sometimes you can see how
03:01
03:01 something is upon us which is going to
03:03
03:03 make all of our lives better. And and
03:04
03:04 there’s probably a bit of a mixture of
03:05
03:05 both going on in any great university.
03:08
03:08 >> It’s true. And if we think about the UK
03:10
03:10 as a hot bed of innovation and
03:12
03:12 creativity and we trace back some of the
03:14
03:14 great discoveries, so many of those
03:15
03:15 paths lead back uh to our great
03:18
03:18 universities. So we got to know each
03:21
03:21 other through greater together
03:22
03:22 connecting the US and the UK. If someone
03:25
03:25 says to you today, Vivian, just remind
03:28
03:28 us why universities matter, what do you
03:32
03:32 say?
03:32
03:32 >> Oh my goodness. Do you know what? I
03:33
03:33 think we’re in a bit of a national funk,
03:35
03:35 are we not right now? Um, you know,
03:37
03:37 there’s a there’s a sense that all sorts
03:39
03:39 of things about this uh this nation are
03:41
03:41 sort of maybe not as we’d like them to
03:43
03:43 be. The university sector is something
03:45
03:45 this country can be really really proud
03:48
03:48 of. Right? If you go anywhere else in
03:50
03:50 the world, and we certainly saw it in
03:52
03:52 LA, you’ll see people who really want to
03:54
03:54 get in touch with, work with the people
03:56
03:56 in our universities. Why? because for
03:58
03:58 reasons I think it’s quite difficult to
03:60
03:60 explain just from the sort of you know
04:01
04:01 the uh our place in the uh the world the
04:05
04:05 amount of money we invest we are without
04:07
04:07 a doubt one of the world’s great
04:09
04:09 research superpowers we’ve got an
04:11
04:11 education system that’s widely admired
04:13
04:13 we’ve got these institutions that have
04:14
04:14 been around uh for you know hundreds of
04:17
04:17 years in some cases um that have got uh
04:21
04:21 extraordinarily wide networks
04:23
04:23 internationally it means we’ve got you
04:25
04:25 know friends and partners all over the
04:28
04:28 world. It’s it’s an extraordinary
04:30
04:30 platform and for not just the
04:32
04:32 universities themselves but all sorts of
04:34
04:34 other people who benefit from those
04:36
04:36 networks and the exchange and
04:37
04:37 circulation of ideas. So look, I always
04:39
04:39 say I think that if you’re looking for a
04:41
04:41 reason to be optimistic about this
04:42
04:42 country’s future, this right here is one
04:44
04:44 of the reasons to be optimistic.
04:46
04:46 >> Yeah. and and and let’s just be even
04:48
04:48 more specific because you’ve put
04:50
04:50 together a very strong case there for uh
04:53
04:53 team GB uh for the UK as a whole for the
04:56
04:56 whole ecosystem but the universities
04:60
04:60 specifically
05:01
05:01 just remind us if they disappeared
05:04
05:04 heaven forbid tomorrow what do we lose?
05:07
05:07 Well look I mean as a economic actor we
05:10
05:10 are probably contributing around about a
05:12
05:12 quarter of a trillion pounds a year to
05:14
05:14 the economy like they are huge economic
05:16
05:16 anchors they employ I mean there are
05:18
05:18 lots of towns and cities where the
05:20
05:20 university will be the biggest or the
05:21
05:21 second biggest employer and they’re
05:24
05:24 deeply woven into our public services so
05:27
05:27 you know your doctors and nurses and
05:29
05:29 paramedics and uh lots of other public
05:32
05:32 and sector professionals are being
05:33
05:33 trained by universities. They are a huge
05:35
05:35 export industry, right? If you think
05:37
05:37 about service sector exports, which is
05:39
05:39 really where the UK has uh particular
05:41
05:41 strengths, um education is one of the
05:44
05:44 strongest and fastest growing service
05:46
05:46 sector exports. It’s about uh 40 billion
05:48
05:48 in export uh earnings. Um and we’ve also
05:52
05:52 got this network of people around the
05:53
05:53 world who’ve been educated here and that
05:56
05:56 has quite a sort of strong influence on
05:58
05:58 the way that you know during the course
06:00
06:00 of you know somebody’s life and career
06:02
06:02 they see the UK and we probably have
06:04
06:04 both experienced that.
06:06
06:06 >> Yeah. It’s it’s a really helpful framing
06:09
06:09 I think because rather than seeing them
06:11
06:11 as a unit that links up with other forms
06:14
06:14 of education, what you’re putting there
06:17
06:17 is something that is effectively
06:20
06:20 completely central to our national
06:21
06:21 infrastructure. Really,
06:23
06:23 >> it is national infrastructure. I mean,
06:25
06:25 one of the things that I don’t think we
06:26
06:26 do a good enough job of is is sort of
06:28
06:28 taking people on that kind of little
06:29
06:29 mental journey from a model where they
06:31
06:31 might think of universities as big
06:33
06:33 schools. you know, you maybe you wander
06:35
06:35 into a big room, somebody somewhere and
06:38
06:38 somebody drones at you about something
06:39
06:39 very sort of theoretical and to sort of
06:42
06:42 understanding that these are kind of
06:44
06:44 like roads or water or energy. If you um
06:48
06:48 if you take out that infrastructure,
06:50
06:50 it’s not just individuals who, you know,
06:53
06:53 maybe they can’t go to a university in
06:55
06:55 their local area, you lose a big
06:57
06:57 employer, you lose uh I mean, look, one
06:59
06:59 of the things I think is really um
07:02
07:02 wonderful that most people don’t and
07:03
07:03 really have an an idea of is how many
07:06
07:06 universities have got um you know,
07:09
07:09 public um uh facilities that are
07:15
07:15 co-developed say for example with the
07:16
07:16 NHS. So there are lots of universities
07:18
07:18 that have um community diagnostic
07:20
07:20 centers on campus. You can come into,
07:23
07:23 you know, I was in Glasgow Caledonian uh
07:25
07:25 university recently. I think it’s the
07:26
07:26 only place in Scotland where they teach
07:28
07:28 podiatry and they have a public uh
07:31
07:31 facing foot clinic. Uh you know, so
07:34
07:34 their students are getting experience,
07:36
07:36 hands-on experience with real life
07:38
07:38 patients, supervised I might add. Uh but
07:40
07:40 the people of Glasgow have got access to
07:42
07:42 a pretty great kind of podiatry clinic.
07:45
07:45 So that’s everywhere, right? And and we
07:47
07:47 don’t do a great job of explaining that.
07:49
07:49 >> No. And and and it’s becoming clearer by
07:52
07:52 the minute. So uh if we were to go
07:55
07:55 toe-to-toe since you’ve mentioned it
07:57
07:57 with our university leaders, which you
07:59
07:59 do all the time, you know their minds
08:01
08:01 very well. I want to get a little bit
08:03
08:03 more of a sense of what keeps them awake
08:05
08:05 at night. Right. And I realize not all
08:07
08:07 of this is sunlit uplands. And it’s
08:09
08:09 interesting you touch on water and
08:11
08:11 energy and roads because in all of those
08:13
08:13 cases, these are things which we debate
08:16
08:16 all the time about how well they’re
08:18
08:18 being run and how they should be run. So
08:22
08:22 give us a glimpse in terms of what’s
08:23
08:23 what’s on your colleagues minds.
08:25
08:25 >> Well, look, I mean, it’s a great
08:26
08:26 question and I cannot tell you that the
08:29
08:29 collective leadership of the university
08:30
08:30 sector sleeps like a kind of bunch of
08:32
08:32 babies. They probably don’t. It’s a hell
08:34
08:34 of a time to be leading a university. Um
08:36
08:36 I think it’s pretty widely understood
08:38
08:38 that the financial model um our systems
08:42
08:42 uh operating within in all four nations
08:44
08:44 of the UK for different reasons is uh
08:46
08:46 you know it’s in a terrible mess to be
08:48
08:48 completely honest and I think university
08:50
08:50 leaders are pretty lucky compared to
08:52
08:52 some of those other sectors that you’ve
08:54
08:54 talked about. We’ve got a lot of agency.
08:56
08:56 You know there are lots of things that
08:57
08:57 university leaders can do to uh to
09:00
09:00 influence the kind of environment
09:01
09:01 they’re in. They can be entrepreneurial
09:03
09:03 in the way that you might not be able to
09:04
09:04 be if you’re running a hospital or a
09:06
09:06 local authority. Um you know they’ve got
09:09
09:09 uh the ability to collaborate which I
09:11
09:11 think is an extraordinary strength of
09:13
09:13 our university system and you see a lot
09:14
09:14 of that going on. Um but I’ll tell you
09:17
09:17 my concern and I think that if we take a
09:20
09:20 big step back I would imagine this is
09:22
09:22 shared by quite a lot of the vice
09:23
09:23 chancellors in our sector. It’s this
09:25
09:25 sense that we’re at this moment in
09:27
09:27 history where there are two paths ahead
09:29
09:29 of us in the woods and one of them takes
09:32
09:32 us towards a sector that remains in the
09:34
09:34 next decade and the decade after that
09:36
09:36 the envy of the world the kind of thing
09:37
09:37 we just talked about and the other
09:40
09:40 and I don’t want to downgrade the NHS
09:42
09:42 right but the other is you know in a
09:44
09:44 sense NHS 2.0 zero. We we have a system
09:47
09:47 that we are really really proud of and
09:51
09:51 we we me and the people leading the
09:53
09:53 universities right now preside over its
09:55
09:55 slow decline. Right? And I think we
09:58
09:58 should fight that path like the devil.
09:60
09:60 There is a um potential for us to
10:02
10:02 collectively give up on the possibility
10:05
10:05 of maintaining our position in the world
10:06
10:06 to admit that we are we’re simply you
10:09
10:09 know we’re we’re a second order player.
10:10
10:10 We’re a middle power to use Mark
10:12
10:12 Carney’s phrase and um we’ll end up with
10:15
10:15 our middle power universities playing a
10:17
10:17 middle power type role in a middle power
10:19
10:19 kind of world. Damn it, not on my bloody
10:21
10:21 watch if we can help it. So how do we
10:24
10:24 stop going down that path? How can we
10:25
10:25 choose the first path and not the
10:26
10:26 second?
10:28
10:28 >> Right? So on the choices ahead to retain
10:32
10:32 that position uh globally of course
10:35
10:35 requires excellence but excellence
10:38
10:38 depends what you’re comparing it to and
10:40
10:40 of course we compare it to our peers but
10:43
10:43 it also requires change
10:45
10:45 >> and evolution perhaps in some cases step
10:48
10:48 change. So
10:50
10:50 >> let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about
10:52
10:52 a what needs to change, but of course in
10:55
10:55 that spirit of the future being unevenly
10:57
10:57 distributed, what is already changing?
10:60
10:60 Help us to get to the edge of this.
11:01
11:01 >> So, we’ve been trying to push um our
11:05
11:05 university members to think really kind
11:07
11:07 of creatively about what you can do
11:09
11:09 differently in order to thrive and not
11:11
11:11 decline. We’ve got a huge focus on
11:14
11:14 transformation on how universities might
11:16
11:16 undergo uh kind of beneficial
11:18
11:18 transformation. I’ve talked about
11:20
11:20 collaboration being our sector’s
11:21
11:21 superpower. I think it’s an
11:22
11:22 extraordinary thing. We’ve got a a
11:24
11:24 system which has been, you know,
11:27
11:27 increasingly pushed by the kind of
11:30
11:30 policy environment to be hyperco
11:32
11:32 competitive and it is a competitive
11:33
11:33 system. There are lots of benefits of
11:35
11:35 that, but it’s also um a system which is
11:38
11:38 able to pull resources to kind of come
11:41
11:41 together to do things in different ways.
11:43
11:43 So, we’ve got a lot of that going on at
11:44
11:44 the moment, I think.
11:46
11:46 >> Can I can I stop you? Sorry, Vivian. And
11:48
11:48 that’s the second time you’ve touched on
11:50
11:50 collaboration.
11:51
11:51 >> Yeah.
11:52
11:52 >> Help us bring that to life. What example
11:54
11:54 comes to mind because I really want our
11:56
11:56 viewer to to imagine this in practice.
11:58
11:58 >> So I’ll give you I’ll give you three
11:60
11:60 examples. So at the kind of very hard
12:01
12:01 end, the place that most people’s minds
12:03
12:03 go to straight away, it’s mergers,
12:05
12:05 right? There will be consolidation in
12:06
12:06 this sector. I don’t have a view on how
12:08
12:08 many universities this country should
12:10
12:10 have, but I’m pretty sure we’ll see um
12:13
12:13 some consolidation and the growth of
12:15
12:15 some much bigger organizations. So kind
12:17
12:17 of the development of super universities
12:19
12:19 in a way. Um there are some recent
12:21
12:21 examples of that. Kent and Greenwich and
12:24
12:24 Kings and Cranfield really interesting.
12:25
12:25 They’re going to end up very prominent
12:27
12:27 globally because of what they’re
12:28
12:28 bringing together. And then at the other
12:30
12:30 end of the spectrum there’s much softer
12:33
12:33 uh collaboration. So pooling resources.
12:36
12:36 Um a good example of that would be um
12:40
12:40 three universities in uh the kind of
12:42
12:42 Edinburgh region. um trying to work out
12:45
12:45 how they uh share much more back office
12:48
12:48 what they could do by co-delivering
12:51
12:51 certain sorts of teaching uh pooling
12:53
12:53 research uh resources uh maybe physical
12:56
12:56 estate and maybe the third example I’ll
12:59
12:59 give you which I think is probably we’ll
13:01
13:01 see more of is the development of these
13:04
13:04 sort of um university groups that are
13:07
13:07 vertical not horizontal an institution
13:09
13:09 like South Bank uh in London which has
13:12
13:12 schools colleges and a university all in
13:15
13:15 one group. And I think that’s a very
13:17
13:17 interesting model.
13:19
13:19 >> No, really interesting. But it also
13:20
13:20 brings us to the idea that frankly if
13:22
13:22 we’re all going to be or many of us are
13:24
13:24 going to be working till we’re 75, it
13:26
13:26 does seem a little bit odd that for many
13:28
13:28 who do go to university. So what just
13:30
13:30 under a half probably uh most of them I
13:34
13:34 think or the vast majority of them that
13:36
13:36 experience is done by the time they’re
13:37
13:37 in their early 20s.
13:39
13:39 >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean and I I’m sure you’ve
13:41
13:41 um you spend probably a lot of time
13:43
13:43 talking to people both about the reasons
13:45
13:45 to be optimistic about the big
13:47
13:47 disruption that we are beginning to see
13:50
13:50 play out in the labor market as
13:51
13:51 technologies like AI uh begin to change
13:53
13:53 the way that we work. But I think it’s
13:55
13:55 going to be a bit of a fearful decade to
13:57
13:57 be completely honest. I think there are
13:58
13:58 going to be people who are, you know,
13:60
13:60 looking even to the next 5 years and
14:02
14:02 they’re not sure the job they’re doing
14:03
14:03 is going to exist. Uh I mean, you know,
14:06
14:06 you’re in London, right? So am I. I look
14:07
14:07 out the window, there are driverless
14:09
14:09 cars. I go to a shop and the uh the the
14:13
14:13 shop assistants have been replaced by
14:15
14:15 new technology and that’s now starting
14:17
14:17 to feature into many other domains. So I
14:20
14:20 think our universities will increasingly
14:22
14:22 need to be there for people who need to
14:24
14:24 pivot. Uh they need to retool they need
14:28
14:28 to think about what they can do which is
14:31
14:31 different to what they did in the past.
14:32
14:32 And I think that’s our job really. It’s
14:34
14:34 going to be to try and make sure that
14:36
14:36 university isn’t this thing you do when
14:38
14:38 you’re 18. Um but it’s there for you if
14:41
14:41 you need to kind of redevelop your you
14:44
14:44 know your offer
14:44
14:44 >> because on that there is something there
14:47
14:47 on or a huge amount there on um you know
14:50
14:50 that that that purpose um and of course
14:53
14:53 it is beyond simply preparing for the
14:56
14:56 job market. is expanding minds doing all
14:59
14:59 of the things that um that we have
15:01
15:01 touched on but it is a point around
15:04
15:04 technology that says if AI can um
15:08
15:08 explain things can tutor us personally
15:12
15:12 help us to produce work let’s be honest
15:15
15:15 um what becomes incredibly valuable
15:18
15:18 about the university of the future
15:20
15:20 >> it’s already an age in which the
15:22
15:22 knowledge that you can contain in your
15:24
15:24 head own head is perhaps less valuable.
15:27
15:27 What is it that we need to make sure our
15:29
15:29 graduates really focus on as they’re as
15:32
15:32 they’re spending and I mean one of the
15:34
15:34 things I find quite um I don’t know life
15:37
15:37 affirming is the focus on mental effort
15:40
15:40 right it does not matter to you it does
15:42
15:42 not matter to my employer what I know
15:44
15:44 about Andrew Marll doesn’t matter to
15:46
15:46 anybody right it’s irrelevant what
15:49
15:49 matters is the kind of muscle I’ve
15:53
15:53 developed in my in my skull and that’s a
15:56
15:56 muscle that develops because you push
15:58
15:58 it, right? I mean, one of the things I
16:00
16:00 love about my job is that it’s hard
16:02
16:02 mental work. And that, I think, is what
16:05
16:05 we really need to um double down on in
16:07
16:07 in universities is you’re building a
16:10
16:10 machine in your head that can do
16:12
16:12 something that a machine uh you know,
16:15
16:15 made of chips and and you know, uh
16:18
16:18 witchcraft cannot do. And and and that’s
16:21
16:21 it’s resilience. It’s it’s the ability
16:24
16:24 to exercise judgment. It’s the ability
16:27
16:27 to take information and evaluate it
16:29
16:29 because you’ve got a kind of mental
16:31
16:31 hintterland. I think it’s the it’s the
16:34
16:34 it’s the sort of it’s training the
16:36
16:36 muscle that is going to become more
16:37
16:37 important. And actually I will make
16:39
16:39 increasingly irrelevant what you study.
16:42
16:42 I I I suppose the counterargument as you
16:44
16:44 know to that Vivian is that if you think
16:46
16:46 about creativity and problem solving in
16:49
16:49 particular the ingredients that fuel
16:52
16:52 creativity for our nation’s innovators
16:56
16:56 are facts are knowledge are
16:58
16:58 understanding how the world is. So yes
17:01
17:01 of course the matter matters but so does
17:04
17:04 having some ingredients in the cupboard
17:05
17:05 in the first place. Oh yeah, I mean for
17:07
17:07 sure. I think that it’s not that we’re
17:08
17:08 entering a world in which not knowing
17:10
17:10 anything is there was an interesting
17:11
17:11 PISA study um published just a couple of
17:15
17:15 weeks ago about um comparative
17:17
17:17 educational performance across the OECD
17:19
17:19 and um one of the things that I found
17:22
17:22 really interesting was the correlation
17:25
17:25 between it’s just it’s children that the
17:28
17:28 PISA study is evaluating um the
17:31
17:31 correlation between educational
17:33
17:33 performance in standardized tests which
17:35
17:35 are you know run across OECD countries
17:39
17:39 and reading books of more than 100
17:41
17:41 pages. And the interesting thing that um
17:44
17:44 Andre Schlika was saying about why might
17:45
17:45 that correlation exist and it has to do
17:48
17:48 with um the ability of the individual to
17:53
17:53 maybe maintain a complex uh mental model
17:56
17:56 because you as you read a book perhaps a
17:59
17:59 narrative that evolves over two 300
18:01
18:01 pages you sort of have to have a little
18:03
18:03 mental map. Who are these characters?
18:05
18:05 Where is it set? what’s the context that
18:07
18:07 we’re in? And you need to be able to
18:08
18:08 kind of use that mental model to help
18:11
18:11 you understand the story as it evolves.
18:14
18:14 And so that is knowledge. It’s not that
18:17
18:17 you uh you know you you are developing
18:20
18:20 understanding and knowledge. You’re
18:22
18:22 acquiring uh facts that help you to
18:24
18:24 navigate the world around you. But but
18:27
18:27 it’s something more than that. It’s also
18:29
18:29 the ability then to apply that set of
18:32
18:32 facts to the situation you find yourself
18:34
18:34 in on page 120. I think that’s really
18:36
18:36 interesting.
18:37
18:37 >> Yeah, it it is. Now, um something funny
18:40
18:40 enough that I’m supporting today is led
18:44
18:44 by a chancellor of Reading University,
18:46
18:46 Paul Lindley, and it’s a program just
18:48
18:48 imagine if and so I’ll be going off to
18:51
18:51 Henley Business School. Uh because I and
18:54
18:54 a colleague have been mentoring a soil
18:56
18:56 microbiologist
18:58
18:58 who’s starting a business. And I only
19:01
19:01 give that example because it just shows
19:03
19:03 the power of and the business school
19:05
19:05 part of the University of Reading um the
19:07
19:07 power of universities to bring these
19:09
19:09 ingredients including business together
19:12
19:12 and it’s really got me thinking being
19:14
19:14 part of that program over the last
19:15
19:15 couple of years. So I wanted to draw you
19:18
19:18 on to that about how you think the
19:20
19:20 relationship between universities and
19:22
19:22 employers and of course self-employment
19:24
19:24 included needs to change. So I mean the
19:28
19:28 first thing to say is that there’s a
19:29
19:29 huge network of these relationships like
19:32
19:32 um you know people don’t really
19:33
19:33 understand why how universities go about
19:36
19:36 constructing courses but universities
19:38
19:38 will be talking to employers as they put
19:40
19:40 courses together when they think about
19:43
19:43 um developing content in lots of
19:45
19:45 disciplines. They’ll be thinking about
19:47
19:47 bringing employers in about a third
19:50
19:50 maybe 40% of students will be on
19:52
19:52 programs where some workbased component
19:55
19:55 is essential. So you cannot become a
19:57
19:57 nurse if you haven’t spent time uh doing
19:59
19:59 kind of clinical placements. The same
20:01
20:01 would be true in lots of other regulated
20:02
20:02 professions. Um but we need to sort of
20:05
20:05 keep going with that right because
20:07
20:07 whilst universities are not just uh
20:10
20:10 places where you um you kind of train
20:14
20:14 for a particular job they have to be
20:16
20:16 more than that I think and it’s it’s
20:19
20:19 absolutely the case that most students
20:21
20:21 are strongly motivated by the desire to
20:23
20:23 get a decent job and to be resilient in
20:24
20:24 the labor market. So we’re thinking a
20:27
20:27 lot more about that. We’ve just launched
20:28
20:28 a big pledge. I mean I think it’s quite
20:30
20:30 exciting. We we have to now make it
20:31
20:31 happen. But we what we’ve said is that
20:33
20:33 by 2035
20:36
20:36 what happens for the kind of uh large
20:39
20:39 perhaps a large minority of students at
20:41
20:41 the moment where they’re kind of
20:42
20:42 combining work and study in some way
20:45
20:45 should be true of all students. So 100%
20:48
20:48 of students should have had an
20:49
20:49 opportunity to apply what they’re
20:52
20:52 learning in a kind of work environment
20:54
20:54 and there are all sorts of ways of doing
20:55
20:55 that. But we think that should be a part
20:57
20:57 of every degree including you know
20:59
20:59 English literature. Not easy. Uh it’s a
21:02
21:02 bit of a stretching objective but I
21:04
21:04 think it has to be part of what we do.
21:06
21:06 >> Yeah. Interesting. And so um and and and
21:09
21:09 it’s not an accident you mentioned
21:10
21:10 English literature I think. Vivian.
21:12
21:12 >> No I mean I’m modestly obsessed with the
21:15
21:15 validity of my own degree.
21:18
21:18 >> Well well it’s but I mentioned it. Let’s
21:21
21:21 not lose the point that what you’re
21:22
21:22 talking about is designing work
21:24
21:24 experience into the experience of
21:26
21:26 university of every student. So that
21:28
21:28 that is important and noted but only
21:31
21:31 going back to your English degree. What
21:34
21:34 did university leave you with that you
21:36
21:36 didn’t really realize it had left you
21:37
21:37 with until much later on? Well, look,
21:39
21:39 the first thing I should say is when I
21:40
21:40 look back at what I did when I was at
21:43
21:43 university, I think the things that have
21:45
21:45 equipped me for the kind of job that I’m
21:46
21:46 doing today are partly about the degree
21:48
21:48 that I studied, but they’re also about
21:49
21:49 the things I did alongside it. So, um I
21:52
21:52 spent a lot of my time um uh acting,
21:56
21:56 producing, and directing uh plays. So, I
21:59
21:59 kind of you if you’re directing a big
22:01
22:01 play, if you are producing a play,
22:04
22:04 you’re going to be managing a budget.
22:05
22:05 You’re going to be managing a team.
22:06
22:06 You’re going to have to be exhibiting
22:07
22:07 and developing leadership skills. You
22:09
22:09 know, why should anybody do what you
22:10
22:10 tell them to do? That’s pretty kind of
22:12
22:12 foundational if you’re in a job like
22:14
22:14 mine. I think also the ability to
22:16
22:16 communicate. Um I I I think that um I
22:21
22:21 love audiences. I mean, I I think that
22:23
22:23 there’s sort of the that be I love being
22:26
22:26 in a room and watching what people are
22:28
22:28 doing. I quite often when other people
22:29
22:29 are speaking I’m watching the audience
22:31
22:31 because I think it’s fascinating the
22:32
22:32 psychology of an audience. So all of
22:35
22:35 that stuff was really valuable but um
22:38
22:38 but yeah I mean look I I I was so lucky.
22:41
22:41 I just I just couldn’t believe how
22:43
22:43 fortunate I was to get to surround
22:45
22:45 myself with these amazing you know books
22:49
22:49 and people who I thought were really
22:51
22:51 clever and get to argue for three years
22:54
22:54 is just a great great privilege.
22:57
22:57 >> Yeah. And and you know I I’ve been
22:59
22:59 debating whether to share this with you
23:01
23:01 Vivian but I went to two universities
23:04
23:04 and I didn’t manage to complete those
23:06
23:06 two degrees.
23:08
23:08 >> Uh I did throw myself into the world of
23:11
23:11 producing and directing just as you did.
23:14
23:14 >> Um and I did start my first company at
23:17
23:17 university. Now why am I mentioning that
23:19
23:19 personally? because it has been on my
23:21
23:21 mind uh for 30 years uh or 25 years that
23:25
23:25 had university been designed a bit
23:27
23:27 differently
23:28
23:28 >> um with some of those work experience
23:30
23:30 touch points my things anyway I don’t
23:33
23:33 want to turn all whimsical but it
23:34
23:34 fascinates me because the simple fact is
23:37
23:37 that how these courses designed for how
23:39
23:39 long their cost who you get to interact
23:42
23:42 with is is a complete gamecher not just
23:44
23:44 for the individual but for the whole
23:46
23:46 country
23:46
23:46 >> yeah and do you know I I think first of
23:48
23:48 all we’ve got an obsession recession in
23:50
23:50 the UK with people completing courses.
23:52
23:52 We’ve got one of the highest completion
23:53
23:53 rates in the OECD. But for some
23:55
23:55 students, sticking with a course is not
23:56
23:56 the right answer. They’ve made a for
23:58
23:58 whatever reason, it isn’t what they
23:60
23:60 should be doing. And I I quite often end
24:02
24:02 up partly because of my job talking to
24:04
24:04 people who feel that they may have made
24:05
24:05 the wrong choice. And I think it’s
24:08
24:08 important to say you don’t you can
24:11
24:11 change your mind. But but the other
24:13
24:13 point I think that what you’ve said is
24:15
24:15 really um I mean strikes a chord with me
24:18
24:18 is there will be students who’ve got
24:19
24:19 aptitudes which um it would be good if
24:22
24:22 universities you know if we could sort
24:24
24:24 of seize if you if we can give you
24:26
24:26 avenues to develop what you are
24:28
24:28 brilliant at and interested in and I
24:31
24:31 think we we’re getting better at that.
24:33
24:33 But if you are an entrepreneur you
24:36
24:36 should have and many universities will
24:37
24:37 have incubation spaces. I was just at
24:39
24:39 the University of the Arts um this week
24:42
24:42 and if you want to be a creative um you
24:45
24:45 you want to be an entrepreneur, you want
24:46
24:46 to start your own business. Um yeah, you
24:50
24:50 need you need the kind of infrastructure
24:52
24:52 around you around you that will help you
24:53
24:53 do that. And I would like universities
24:55
24:55 to be platforms where people get to, you
24:57
24:57 know, flourish in the thing that they’re
24:59
24:59 really passionate in and not narrowly
25:02
25:02 forced down one route because that’s the
25:04
25:04 only route that’s available. I think
25:05
25:05 it’s really important.
25:07
25:07 >> Yeah, 100%. And I and I and I am
25:09
25:09 delighted to say that there is such a
25:11
25:11 strong network as you say now of
25:13
25:13 incubators, accelerators around the
25:15
25:15 country. Um, Vivian, I’ve got 10
25:17
25:17 quickfire questions, but I’m only going
25:19
25:19 to ask you to pick three numbers. So,
25:20
25:20 let’s go. First number.
25:22
25:22 >> Oh, six.
25:24
25:24 >> Number six. Oh. What will universities
25:27
25:27 compete on in the future?
25:30
25:30 >> The
25:32
25:32 simplest answer is relevance.
25:35
25:35 you know, it’s it’s how am I how are you
25:37
25:37 how is what a university offering gonna
25:40
25:40 going to be relevant to the the the path
25:43
25:43 you’re trying to take as a human being.
25:44
25:44 I think that’s that’s really going to be
25:48
25:48 increasingly important.
25:49
25:49 >> Yeah, I love that you’ve used the phrase
25:51
25:51 human being, not employee. Uh so, thank
25:53
25:53 you. Yeah, re really interesting.
25:55
25:55 Another number
25:57
25:57 >> uh three.
25:60
25:60 >> Which skill will employers value much
26:03
26:03 more highly in the future?
26:06
26:06 >> I’m going to say judgment. I think
26:08
26:08 judgment. I think these are human being
26:10
26:10 skills. But you also mentioned
26:12
26:12 creativity. I think the the things that
26:15
26:15 machines can’t do. The connecting dots,
26:17
26:17 the seeing the very very unexpected uh
26:21
26:21 links between things that apparently
26:22
26:22 unrelated. I suspect those sort of human
26:24
26:24 beingy sort of skills have become more
26:26
26:26 val valuable.
26:28
26:28 >> 100 and that chimes so clearly with what
26:30
26:30 so many of our future forum guests and
26:32
26:32 colleagues are saying. Uh f final number
26:35
26:35 >> uh uh nine.
26:38
26:38 >> What will a great university campus be
26:42
26:42 for
26:44
26:44 in the future?
26:45
26:45 >> I’m going to give you a radical answer
26:46
26:46 to this. I was at a future um uh a
26:51
26:51 future focus event in Edinburgh run by
26:52
26:52 their futures institute and I was asked
26:55
26:55 to think about what the university of
26:56
26:56 2050 would look like. And the thing I
26:58
26:58 dreamed into an existence was a an a
27:02
27:02 membership um organization in which the
27:05
27:05 members are of all ages and um a lot of
27:09
27:09 people come back to the university as
27:11
27:11 they approach retirement should we ever
27:13
27:13 be able to retire. um and they they
27:16
27:16 access all of the things that are
27:17
27:17 happening on campus and they graduate to
27:19
27:19 assisted living facilities where they
27:22
27:22 are surrounded by the kind of assisted
27:25
27:25 technology that makes el old older life
27:27
27:27 in older age uh easier uh and and
27:29
27:29 independent living easier. Um but they
27:31
27:31 do it in a way that is subsidized by the
27:33
27:33 companies that are trying to develop
27:34
27:34 those technologies. So I don’t know
27:36
27:36 whether that’s a good answer but that’s
27:38
27:38 what I’m that’s the
27:39
27:39 >> it’s it’s a it’s a massive answer. It
27:41
27:41 belongs in a in a in the opposite of a
27:44
27:44 quick fire rounds because you’re talking
27:46
27:46 there about um massively moreworked
27:50
27:50 >> Yeah.
27:50
27:50 >> universities which could span every
27:52
27:52 sector. Um important question. Will
27:55
27:55 there be space on these new campuses for
27:57
27:57 more uh elder producers, should we say,
27:59
27:59 to continue putting on plays?
28:01
28:01 >> Well, well, let’s hope so, right? Like I
28:03
28:03 mean I’m sure that they could teach the
28:05
28:05 18-year-old um it’s a little thing or
28:07
28:07 two. I produced some terri terrible
28:09
28:09 nonsense when I was at university.
28:12
28:12 No, guilty. Guilty is charged. Uh you
28:15
28:15 you might have seen one. Uh and um no,
28:18
28:18 really interesting. And um I have got a
28:21
28:21 final question which goes to all of our
28:22
28:22 guests, but I want to go back to
28:24
28:24 something. you
28:26
28:26 didn’t say, but you channeled it earlier
28:28
28:28 as you said the words not on my watch,
28:31
28:31 which was this idea that we must at all
28:35
28:35 cost resist a decline in our great un
28:38
28:38 well in all of our universities. And
28:40
28:40 >> I just want you to speak more about that
28:43
28:43 because what does that mean in practice
28:46
28:46 and where do we have to really up our
28:49
28:49 collective game?
28:51
28:51 >> Well, I think it means don’t give up.
28:53
28:53 don’t just accept that we’re entering a
28:54
28:54 period in which public finances are
28:56
28:56 going to be enormous under enormous
28:57
28:57 pressure and we just have to work out
28:59
28:59 how to cut costs and do things more
29:01
29:01 cheaply. And of course all of that is
29:04
29:04 going to be necessary. There isn’t uh
29:05
29:05 you know a magic uh solution coming over
29:08
29:08 the um uh horizon for us in the source
29:10
29:10 of a kind of in the form of great big um
29:13
29:13 uh financial but I don’t think we should
29:15
29:15 give out. I think we have to remain
29:16
29:16 ambitious. I think we have to we have to
29:20
29:20 continue enlisting people like you,
29:21
29:21 right? Who can see this isn’t just about
29:25
29:25 a university system that’s interested in
29:26
29:26 itself. This is national infrastructure
29:29
29:29 in which we all have a stake and if we
29:30
29:30 want to be ambitious a country if we’re
29:32
29:32 not prepared to give up on the idea of
29:35
29:35 having influence in the world. Uh yeah,
29:38
29:38 we we have to stay ambitious. I think
29:41
29:41 that’s going to be our challenge as
29:42
29:42 leaders. And it’s so interesting that
29:45
29:45 our first conversation happened, funnily
29:48
29:48 enough, outside the UK looking back in
29:51
29:51 and I just was acutely aware of that
29:53
29:53 beacon, that strength uh that we must
29:56
29:56 continue to to magnetize. Um I just I
29:60
29:60 don’t want to derail your uh questions
30:02
30:02 but you also mentioned it’s people have
30:04
30:04 an idea that that might mean sort of
30:06
30:06 protecting a small number of
30:08
30:08 institutions who are in the global kind
30:09
30:09 of uh you know they’re in the super
30:11
30:11 league and we absolutely do I mean I
30:14
30:14 think it would be a dreadful tragedy if
30:16
30:16 we weaken the performance of the
30:18
30:18 institutions which are our uh global
30:20
30:20 household names but but what I see when
30:24
30:24 I go around um universities of different
30:27
30:27 types
30:28
30:28 is the niches that institutions of
30:30
30:30 different types fill. People forget
30:32
30:32 about our fantastic specialist
30:34
30:34 institutions. Places like you know the
30:36
30:36 London School of Hygiene and Tropical
30:38
30:38 Medicine just down the road. Uh places
30:40
30:40 like uh the Royal College of Art um you
30:45
30:45 know but we also probably partly because
30:48
30:48 people in leadership positions um you
30:51
30:51 know they they they’re obsessed with a
30:53
30:53 particular subset of institutions.
30:56
30:56 But I was I was at a small kind of
30:57
30:57 campus-based,
30:60
30:60 you know, religious foundation um uh
31:03
31:03 institution. We’ve got these
31:04
31:04 universities that have got this kind of
31:06
31:06 Church of England heritage. They were
31:08
31:08 often established to train teachers and
31:11
31:11 then they do a lot of public service
31:12
31:12 education.
31:14
31:14 You know, there are there are little
31:15
31:15 institutions in all parts of the country
31:17
31:17 that kind of are doing a really
31:18
31:18 important job for the place they’re in.
31:20
31:20 And I think we shouldn’t mistake uh you
31:23
31:23 know the the sort of narrative around
31:25
31:25 excellence for a kind of justification
31:27
31:27 for losing that that capability.
31:29
31:29 >> Super clear. And we strengthen them all
31:32
31:32 by wiring them together to leverage that
31:35
31:35 uh collaborative potential which is what
31:37
31:37 you’re doing uh brilliantly. Shout out
31:39
31:39 to uh the London interdisciplinary
31:42
31:42 school one of our collaborators for
31:45
31:45 future forum. uh really promoting
31:48
31:48 systems thinking, interdisciplinary
31:50
31:50 teams. Uh you know, I’m allowed to have
31:53
31:53 favorites. You’re probably not, Vivian,
31:55
31:55 so I thought I’d mention them.
31:58
31:58 >> I love all the institutions in our
31:60
31:60 membership. Absolutely. Equally.
32:02
32:02 >> They’re quite right. Uh final question.
32:04
32:04 Um I’d like you to send a memo to the
32:08
32:08 future, maybe to 10 years time. Could be
32:10
32:10 to your future self. Uh could be to
32:12
32:12 somebody working in the sector in 10
32:14
32:14 years. Let me look at us and tell us
32:17
32:17 what do you say?
32:19
32:19 >> I would say um you are going to go
32:22
32:22 through a pretty bloody tough decade. Um
32:24
32:24 but I hope in a decade’s time you can
32:27
32:27 look back and say we were able to
32:31
32:31 shepherd this instit this set of
32:32
32:32 institutions from strength to strength
32:35
32:35 and if you are exhausted by the effort
32:38
32:38 of doing that for a decade go and have a
32:40
32:40 cup of tea and keep going.
32:44
32:44 Love that. Put the kettle on and carry
32:46
32:46 on. Uh thank you, Villian. Um I wish I
32:51
32:51 had another hour uh to talk to you. It’s
32:53
32:53 been absolutely fascinating. Villian
32:55
32:55 Stern, thank you for joining us on
32:57
32:57 Tomorrow.
32:58
32:58 >> Thank you. I enjoyed it.
32:60
32:60 >> Well, that’s our guest for this episode,
33:02
33:02 Vivian Stern, chief exec of Universities
33:06
33:06 UK. Vivian reminding us right from the
33:08
33:08 start of our conversation of the
33:10
33:10 importance of universities as cradles of
33:13
33:13 invention and innovation. World changing
33:17
33:17 places over history and in the future
33:20
33:20 too. And they’re also something more
33:22
33:22 than that, aren’t they? They are
33:23
33:23 peoplechanging places as well. Places
33:26
33:26 where we can discover ourselves and find
33:30
33:30 collaborators and uh fellow adventurers
33:33
33:33 along the way. importance of
33:35
33:35 collaboration between universities and
33:37
33:37 also imagining a university of the
33:39
33:39 future connecting many more people
33:42
33:42 across the course of our lives. I hope
33:45
33:45 you enjoyed the conversation as much as
33:47
33:47 I did. One important note to stay in
33:49
33:49 touch with all things future forum.
33:52
33:52 Please do subscribe to our newsletter
33:55
33:55 and come and meet us face to face at one
33:57
33:57 of our salons at one of our flagship
33:59
33:59 events. We’d absolutely love that. A
34:01
34:01 final request. If there’s someone you
34:03
34:03 think would really enjoy today’s
34:06
34:06 conversation, please do share it with
34:07
34:07 them. We would massively appreciate
34:09
34:09 that. Uh, thank you for tuning in. It’s
34:11
34:11 Tomorrow is the Future Forum podcast.
34:14
34:14 I’m Ollie Barrett and until next time,
34:16
34:16 goodbye.
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