00:00 There is a a future there, where every
00:02
00:02 child may be able to get access to an
00:04
00:04 incredible personal tutor that is better
00:07
00:07 than the tutoring available through any
00:10
00:10 person in the world today at any price
00:12
00:12 point. When you look at sort of my
00:14
00:14 grandparents’ generation for instance,
00:16
00:16 in that generation roughly around 75%
00:19
00:19 -ish of people did better than their
00:21
00:21 parents in economic terms by the age of
00:23
00:23 30. For my generation now, it’s only
00:25
00:25 around 40%. When I met all these other
00:28
00:28 students at university and realized that
00:30
00:30 they were fundamentally no more talented
00:33
00:33 than a lot of the kids I grew up with,
00:34
00:34 and that sort of really lit the fire in
00:35
00:35 my belly. And when I graduated, I
00:37
00:37 thought, “Is there a way to build
00:39
00:39 technology that fundamentally reshapes
00:42
00:42 who in society can get into these elite
00:44
00:44 institutions?” And we’ve got a golden
00:46
00:46 opportunity to break that link between
00:49
00:49 background and opportunity with a
00:51
00:51 technology that is potentially going to
00:53
00:53 level the playing field in access to the
00:55
00:55 knowledge, skills, and networks you need
00:58
00:58 to succeed. However, if that’s going to
00:60
00:60 happen, it’s not going to be inevitable.
01:06
01:06 >> Hello and welcome to Tomorrow, the
01:09
01:09 Future Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett,
01:12
01:12 and at Future Forum, our mission is to
01:14
01:14 try to connect people from very
01:16
01:16 different worlds, very different
01:17
01:17 industries to shape the future together.
01:22
01:22 Well, here’s our question for today.
01:24
01:24 What if Britain’s greatest competitive
01:27
01:27 advantage was its talent and how well we
01:31
01:31 help it to flourish?
01:33
01:33 Well, our guest today has built a
01:35
01:35 company around finding it, backing it,
01:38
01:38 and helping it to fly. Zero Gravity is a
01:42
01:42 fascinating organization, and that’s why
01:44
01:44 we are absolutely thrilled to say, Joe
01:46
01:46 Seddon, welcome to Tomorrow.
01:49
01:49 >> Great to be on the show, Ollie.
01:50
01:50 >> Thank you for being with us, Joe.
01:51
01:51 Congrats on all you’re doing. We’re
01:53
01:53 going to unpack it all. First of all,
01:55
01:55 though, let’s look into the future. Give
01:58
01:58 us a glimpse of what you see.
02:01
02:01 >> Well, I think we’re going through a
02:02
02:02 really interesting time of profound
02:05
02:05 technological change. And the reason I’m
02:07
02:07 interested in that is because of what it
02:10
02:10 means for the way that talent and
02:12
02:12 opportunity connect in society. When we
02:15
02:15 look over back over the expanse of human
02:17
02:17 history, it’s usually not government
02:20
02:20 policy or government actions that
02:23
02:23 dictate that sort of balance in society
02:26
02:26 between the have and the have-nots. It
02:28
02:28 tends to be three things: technological
02:30
02:30 change, war, and pandemics. And we’re
02:32
02:32 about to go for a big technological
02:34
02:34 change right now. And unlike previous
02:36
02:36 technological changes like the
02:38
02:38 Industrial Revolution or the
02:39
02:39 Agricultural Revolution, it’s not
02:42
02:42 intuitively clear which way it’s going
02:44
02:44 to go in terms of is AI going to be a
02:46
02:46 positive thing for the have-nots in
02:48
02:48 society or a negative thing. And I’ve
02:51
02:51 sort of dedicated my career to try and
02:53
02:53 not only find an answer to that
02:54
02:54 question, but shape the solution because
02:56
02:56 I want AI to be something that works for
02:58
02:58 everyone, not just those building the
02:60
02:60 technology itself.
03:01
03:01 >> Right. So, already,
03:03
03:03 thankfully, we’re taking the long view
03:05
03:05 and it’s a little bit like, isn’t it,
03:06
03:06 remarking on fire and thinking, “Well,
03:07
03:07 this could be disruptive or hugely
03:09
03:09 useful.” Um I am going to steer us back
03:12
03:12 to those First of all, those potentially
03:14
03:14 sunlit uplands
03:16
03:16 in glimpsing the future, because what
03:18
03:18 world would you like to see? I want you
03:20
03:20 to just begin by painting us that
03:22
03:22 picture cuz I want to understand where
03:23
03:23 we’re heading towards.
03:25
03:25 >> Sure. Well, if you think of one of the
03:26
03:26 biggest scourges in the UK today, which
03:30
03:30 is our broken education system, then
03:32
03:32 there now seems to be a world within
03:34
03:34 reach where every single child in the
03:36
03:36 UK, no matter whether you live in a
03:38
03:38 beautiful postcode in Kensington or a
03:42
03:42 postcode in the Blackpool that has been
03:44
03:44 neglected by economic uh change, there
03:47
03:47 is a a future there where every child
03:49
03:49 may be able to get access to an
03:50
03:50 incredible personal tutor that is better
03:54
03:54 than the tutoring available through any
03:56
03:56 person in the world today
03:58
03:58 at any price point. And that is a world
04:00
04:00 which is in reach within the next 1 to 5
04:02
04:02 years. If we get that right, we could
04:04
04:04 bring the benefits of personalized
04:07
04:07 tuition to people from across the
04:08
04:08 socioeconomic spectrum. And the effect
04:10
04:10 that will have on people’s capacity to
04:12
04:12 learn, to enjoy learning, and just be
04:13
04:13 able to get on and do stuff in life
04:15
04:15 could be profound. So, that is the
04:17
04:17 future which is in reach, but it’s not
04:19
04:19 inevitable.
04:20
04:20 >> Right. It’s not going to happen by
04:20
04:20 default. And I want to be sort of part
04:22
04:22 of helping to shape that change.
04:23
04:23 >> Right. And let’s explore how we get that
04:26
04:26 right. Why I feel that our listener, our
04:29
04:29 viewer, ought to pay especial interest
04:32
04:32 to you, Joe, is you aren’t a quotes tech
04:35
04:35 bro riffing around what tech and
04:37
04:37 education could do if only they crossed
04:39
04:39 paths, right? You are directly
04:41
04:41 responsible through Zero Gravity in
04:43
04:43 getting thousands of thousands of young
04:45
04:45 people into university, into work, and
04:48
04:48 your own story is one of change.
04:51
04:51 >> So, I just I don’t spend a huge amount
04:52
04:52 of time in tomorrow exploring people’s
04:54
04:54 past, but I do want that whistle-stop
04:56
04:56 recap and what gives you the confidence
04:59
04:59 that what you’re describing is possible.
05:01
05:01 >> Sure. Well, the the sort of London tech
05:02
05:02 sector is a little bit of a bubble and a
05:04
05:04 silo at the end of the day. It tends to
05:06
05:06 be populated from people from very
05:07
05:07 similar kinds of backgrounds. And then
05:10
05:10 in many ways I’m slightly outside of
05:11
05:11 that bubble because I grew up in a small
05:14
05:14 town in West Yorkshire called Morley, a
05:17
05:17 single parent background, and I went to
05:19
05:19 state schools. And I just saw firsthand
05:21
05:21 how difficult it is for not just people
05:23
05:23 from low-income backgrounds in the UK,
05:25
05:25 but actually just the sort of median
05:26
05:26 person in the UK to to get on. If you
05:29
05:29 come from a family that’s just about
05:31
05:31 managing, that’s got financial anxiety,
05:33
05:33 that can’t afford extra curriculars,
05:35
05:35 that can’t afford private tuition, that
05:37
05:37 can’t afford school fees, it’s really,
05:39
05:39 really difficult to break out of the
05:41
05:41 shackles that constrain you due to the
05:44
05:44 parents you have, the postcode you come
05:46
05:46 from, or the school that you go to. Uh
05:48
05:48 but I was one of the lucky ones. I
05:49
05:49 managed to win a place at Oxford
05:51
05:51 University. And the only reason that was
05:53
05:53 possible for someone like me was because
05:55
05:55 of the internet and the World Wide Web.
05:57
05:57 Now, I was that kid at the age of 16
05:59
05:59 sort of putting into YouTube that how do
06:01
06:01 you get into Oxford and watching all
06:02
06:02 these videos of bright-eyed
06:04
06:04 undergraduates sort of elucidating their
06:06
06:06 journey. And even though that wasn’t
06:07
06:07 personalized, even though that wasn’t
06:09
06:09 specific to me, even though a lot of
06:11
06:11 support wasn’t functional, it was enough
06:13
06:13 to kind of inspire me and give me some
06:15
06:15 sense of the inside track. So, I managed
06:17
06:17 to win a place at Oxford, which was
06:18
06:18 life-transforming. And when I got there,
06:21
06:21 I sort of had this emperor’s got no
06:22
06:22 clothes moment where I met all these
06:24
06:24 other students at university and
06:26
06:26 realized that they were fundamentally no
06:28
06:28 more talented than a lot of the kids I
06:30
06:30 grew up with. And that sort of really
06:31
06:31 lit the fire in my belly. And when I
06:33
06:33 graduated, I thought, is there a way to
06:36
06:36 build technology that fundamentally
06:38
06:38 reshapes who in society can get into
06:41
06:41 these elite institutions? And that’s
06:42
06:42 what I set about doing for the next part
06:44
06:44 of my journey.
06:44
06:44 >> Right. So, and I haven’t warned you
06:46
06:46 about this, but I want to try and
06:48
06:48 condense zero gravity through the eyes
06:51
06:51 of one of the people you’ve helped. Yes.
06:53
06:53 Because I really want the the the
06:54
06:54 listener to have that home run in their
06:56
06:56 mind saying, “Got it.” I don’t want it
06:58
06:58 to be hanging. Give us a sense of what
07:00
07:00 what what you helped them to do.
07:02
07:02 >> Sure. So, I’ll give you an example of a
07:04
07:04 real student. So, when I first launched
07:06
07:06 the platform back in 2018, the scale of
07:08
07:08 it was much smaller than it is today.
07:10
07:10 Now, today we have around 13,000
07:12
07:12 students every year who come through the
07:14
07:14 platform into university. But in the
07:15
07:15 first year I launched it, we had just
07:17
07:17 over 100 students. I knew every single
07:19
07:19 one of them by name. They weren’t sort
07:21
07:21 of data points in a in a database. They
07:22
07:22 were real people. And one of those
07:24
07:24 students was a girl called Natalie
07:26
07:26 Thomas. And she’d grown up in Milford
07:27
07:27 Haven in um in Wales. And I went to a
07:30
07:30 state school. They came from a
07:31
07:31 low-income background. And so, she had
07:34
07:34 ambitions to study history and politics
07:36
07:36 at the University of Oxford, but didn’t
07:38
07:38 know anybody who’d been to Oxford. No no
07:40
07:40 one in in school had gone. And she used
07:42
07:42 our platform to win a place at
07:43
07:43 university and becoming the first person
07:46
07:46 in her school in a generation to win a
07:47
07:47 place at Oxford. But then even
07:50
07:50 in the next stage of the journey, she
07:51
07:51 was thinking about I want to win a
07:53
07:53 career in law. But no, commercial law is
07:55
07:55 one of the most competitive sectors in
07:58
07:58 the entire London economy and she didn’t
07:60
07:60 know where to start. So we connected her
08:02
08:02 with somebody who was a leader in the
08:03
08:03 legal space who mentored her. And she
08:05
08:05 ended up being the first hire in the law
08:08
08:08 firm Perkins Coie’s expansion from the
08:10
08:10 US into Europe.
08:12
08:12 And uh has now gone that full journey
08:14
08:14 with our platform into university, into
08:16
08:16 work, and now into life as well.
08:18
08:18 >> Right. So that is Natalie.
08:20
08:20 >> Yes.
08:20
08:20 >> That is Natalie’s story. I felt that the
08:23
08:23 second part, it was crystal clear to me.
08:25
08:25 I didn’t think you were too modest so
08:27
08:27 far on how you helped her on the
08:29
08:29 university chapter. What did you
08:31
08:31 actually do?
08:32
08:32 >> Well, the main thing is we give access
08:34
08:34 to a mentor who’s been the same position
08:37
08:37 that you’ve been in and knows how
08:40
08:40 sort of anxiety-inducing it can be
08:42
08:42 applying to university, not knowing what
08:43
08:43 your future’s got ahead of you. I can
08:45
08:45 really give you the inside track of what
08:47
08:47 it takes to win a place on these
08:49
08:49 competitive institutions. So Natalie had
08:51
08:51 a mentor who sat down with her through
08:53
08:53 our platform for 1-hour video call every
08:55
08:55 week over a 12-month period. And just
08:58
08:58 doing that through the power of
08:59
08:59 compounding, you take somebody from a
09:01
09:01 position where they’ve got lots of raw
09:03
09:03 talent but no polish, no understanding
09:05
09:05 of system to someone at the end of that
09:06
09:06 process who not only has the talent but
09:08
09:08 has the understanding of how things
09:10
09:10 actually work.
09:11
09:11 >> Right.
09:12
09:12 And now viewer might be thinking, is
09:14
09:14 this a is Joey turning this into a promo
09:17
09:17 for Zero Gravity? Maybe because I think,
09:20
09:20 Joe, what you’re describing epitomizes
09:23
09:23 the conundrum that we’re facing. Because
09:26
09:26 if we think about what gets referred to
09:28
09:28 as the Bank of Mom and Dad, there’s a
09:30
09:30 sense of the privileges that get passed
09:32
09:32 down between generations. And I have
09:36
09:36 no sense of the scale of that, but it is
09:39
09:39 billions. How do we hack that by passing
09:43
09:43 on these advantages,
09:45
09:45 given we might not have the 100 billion
09:46
09:46 or whatever it is?
09:47
09:47 >> Well, I can give you a sense of the the
09:48
09:48 Bank of Mom and Dad. So, every single
09:50
09:50 year in the UK, around 115 billion
09:53
09:53 pounds passes in direct financial
09:56
09:56 transfer from parents and grandparents
09:59
09:59 to children. And if the Bank of Mom and
10:01
10:01 Dad was a government department, it’d
10:02
10:02 actually be the fourth biggest
10:04
10:04 department in the UK. They’re bigger
10:05
10:05 than the Department of Defense, bigger
10:07
10:07 than education. So, there’s this huge
10:09
10:09 force that everyone kind of knows exists
10:10
10:10 in society, but it’s a bit awkward to
10:12
10:12 talk about, that’s shaping people’s
10:14
10:14 opportunities. And what I want to do is
10:16
10:16 essentially take out the arbitrariness,
10:19
10:19 the luck, the unfairness out of the
10:21
10:21 equation of who wins in this talent
10:24
10:24 race, to make sure that the UK as a
10:26
10:26 whole can identify, develop, and recruit
10:30
10:30 the best people. And the reason I care
10:31
10:31 about that is not just from kind of
10:33
10:33 social justice reasons, because it’s the
10:35
10:35 right thing to do, but because I think
10:36
10:36 it’s absolutely existential to our
10:39
10:39 society. Again, when we look back over
10:41
10:41 history, civilizations have risen and
10:43
10:43 fallen due to their ability to utilize
10:46
10:46 talent across their societies. And I
10:48
10:48 think we’ve got a bit complacent in the
10:49
10:49 West about our ability to do so. If we
10:52
10:52 don’t get this question right, we’re not
10:53
10:53 going to be the civilization shaping the
10:56
10:56 next generation.
10:57
10:57 >> Right. So,
10:58
10:58 we’re going to come on to some practical
10:60
10:60 thoughts. By the way,
11:01
11:01 I’ve already taken a step to the side
11:03
11:03 saying, you know, if it isn’t money
11:05
11:05 that’s being passed on. I do wonder, I
11:07
11:07 don’t know if you’re a policy innovator,
11:09
11:09 Joe.
11:11
11:11 Uh I wonder if we have explored um fully
11:14
11:14 what some real innovation in that space
11:17
11:17 would look like, that unlocked capital
11:19
11:19 to help people get on.
11:21
11:21 Um because it would be an amazing
11:22
11:22 investment.
11:24
11:24 >> Yeah, I I think one of the things that’s
11:25
11:25 really tricky about this space is
11:27
11:27 governments can influence who gets
11:29
11:29 opportunities in society, but it’s
11:31
11:31 really, really difficult. Now, people
11:32
11:32 often ask me, “Now, Joe, what was the
11:34
11:34 first sort of social mobility program in
11:37
11:37 the UK? You know, the first intervention
11:39
11:39 to help low-income people rise up
11:40
11:40 society?” And I rather flippantly say,
11:42
11:42 “Actually, it was the Norman Conquest.”
11:44
11:44 Because if you go back a thousand years,
11:46
11:46 now, William the Conqueror, over the
11:47
11:47 space of a couple of years, literally
11:49
11:49 defenestrated almost every single
11:51
11:51 Anglo-Saxon chieftain in the UK and
11:54
11:54 replaced them with a random Norman
11:55
11:55 soldier, often from a working-class
11:57
11:57 background. And when you look at the
11:58
11:58 Domesday Book, published 20 years after
12:00
12:00 the Conquest, around 90% of all the land
12:03
12:03 in the UK had changed hands. So, even
12:06
12:06 though that’s a sort of flippant answer,
12:07
12:07 the insight behind it is it’s often
12:09
12:09 these big macro-societal forces that
12:12
12:12 actually transform that delicate balance
12:14
12:14 between talent and opportunity, not
12:17
12:17 government intervention. So, governments
12:18
12:18 can do things, but actually, you’re
12:20
12:20 always at the sort of subject of these
12:23
12:23 bigger technological and, you know, war,
12:25
12:25 pandemic-based forces shaping things in
12:27
12:27 the background.
12:28
12:28 >> Right. And there’s a very recent and
12:29
12:29 future echo of what you’ve just
12:31
12:31 described, brought about by the changes
12:33
12:33 in technology and AI, which are also
12:35
12:35 moving these tectonic plates. Let’s make
12:37
12:37 it really practical for a moment.
12:39
12:39 Aside from what Zero Gravity’s doing,
12:41
12:41 what are three examples of what any
12:43
12:43 employer could do today
12:46
12:46 which would help shift the needle on
12:47
12:47 what you’ve just talked about?
12:49
12:49 >> One of the most obvious ones is applying
12:52
12:52 contextual techniques in recruitment
12:55
12:55 admissions. Now, that sounds a little
12:56
12:56 bit nerdy, but essentially, what that
12:58
12:58 means is rather than looking at
12:60
12:60 someone’s performance in absolute terms
13:02
13:02 on a CV, in terms of what grades they
13:03
13:03 got at school, what work experience they
13:05
13:05 were able to to uh to to get, instead,
13:09
13:09 look at that in the context of the
13:10
13:10 background they’re from. So, we’ve
13:12
13:12 developed an algorithm that essentially
13:13
13:13 says to an employer that this is a
13:15
13:15 student who’s performed, you know, two
13:17
13:17 grades above what you’d expect at
13:19
13:19 school. They’ve managed to get into a
13:21
13:21 university that you wouldn’t expect. So,
13:22
13:22 this is somebody who is a bit of a kind
13:24
13:24 of rough diamond, and you should give
13:26
13:26 them an extra look because they might
13:28
13:28 not look excellent on a CV, but in the
13:30
13:30 context of where they come from, this
13:32
13:32 person’s a massive outperformer. Now,
13:34
13:34 that sounds common sensical, but the
13:35
13:35 default in recruitment in the UK is to
13:37
13:37 look at absolute performance, which
13:39
13:39 doesn’t make sense for young people cuz
13:40
13:40 you’re backing potential, not kind of
13:42
13:42 direct productivity and outcomes today.
13:45
13:45 >> Yeah, and a and a and a very narrow data
13:48
13:48 set.
13:48
13:48 >> A very narrow data set and and one which
13:50
13:50 is now deeply intertwined with money and
13:54
13:54 and privilege. Now, if you go to a elite
13:56
13:56 private school in the UK, your ability
13:58
13:58 to get now three A’s stars at A level is
14:00
14:00 completely different to someone going to
14:02
14:02 a a state comprehensive in in Liverpool.
14:05
14:05 So, I employers need to look at this as
14:06
14:06 almost like a data science challenge and
14:09
14:09 sort of cast away these now old out of
14:11
14:11 date recruitment techniques and then
14:13
14:13 really look at different ways of
14:14
14:14 analyzing potential. So, that’s one easy
14:16
14:16 thing
14:16
14:16 >> Right, let’s have
14:17
14:17 >> an employer can do.
14:18
14:18 Another one is actually just getting out
14:20
14:20 there in the country and and the reason
14:22
14:22 that matters is London has actually gone
14:24
14:24 through a social mobility revolution
14:26
14:26 over the past 20 years. So, if you’re
14:28
14:28 born on a council estate in Brixton and
14:31
14:31 you come from a family in London in the
14:33
14:33 bottom 10% of the income distribution,
14:36
14:36 you’re more likely to go to a highly
14:38
14:38 selective university and get into a
14:40
14:40 highly selective employer than about 80%
14:43
14:43 of the entire income distribution
14:44
14:44 outside London. Now, in many ways that’s
14:46
14:46 amazing. Now, London is this sort of
14:48
14:48 cauldron of social mobility, but that’s
14:50
14:50 a really negative story for the rest of
14:53
14:53 the country and and one of the reasons
14:54
14:54 for that is that employers often just do
14:57
14:57 things on their doorstep. If you go into
14:59
14:59 any London-based firm and ask them what
15:01
15:01 you’re doing to recruit talent, they’ll
15:02
15:02 tell you some story about going into
15:04
15:04 schools in the Islington or the Camden
15:07
15:07 or Tower Hamlets or or Newham. They they
15:09
15:09 never talk about, “Oh, we’ve got this
15:11
15:11 really exciting program in Blackpool or
15:13
15:13 even Luton or Morley in West Yorkshire
15:16
15:16 where I’m from.” So, employers need to
15:18
15:18 cast their net wider from just their
15:20
15:20 local geography. Otherwise, you’re It’s
15:22
15:22 just benefit people living in urban
15:23
15:23 hubs.
15:24
15:24 >> 100% and kudos to charities like
15:27
15:27 Business in the Community, its Seeing is
15:28
15:28 Believing program, having met dozens of
15:31
15:31 leaders from Blackpool, Wisbech,
15:33
15:33 and other places in the UK.
15:36
15:36 Except that’s the exception.
15:37
15:37 It’s not happening enough, right?
15:39
15:39 >> Yeah, exactly.
15:40
15:40 >> Right. And and and because I said three,
15:41
15:41 let’s have another third because I want
15:43
15:43 people to say, “Okay, well, we could do
15:44
15:44 that.” This is what we ought to be
15:45
15:45 talking about next Monday.
15:46
15:46 >> Yeah. I think that the final thing that
15:48
15:48 employers can do is actually be
15:52
15:52 proactive rather than reactive about
15:54
15:54 developing skills. So, a lot of
15:55
15:55 employers complain that the current
15:57
15:57 generation coming out of university are
15:59
15:59 not built for the workforce. Now, they
16:01
16:01 don’t have no resilience. They don’t
16:03
16:03 have the kind of mental agility to learn
16:05
16:05 new skills. Now, they’re lacking just
16:07
16:07 like basic foundational stuff. And I
16:09
16:09 think a lot of that is true. I think
16:11
16:11 university is is failing in its function
16:13
16:13 to prepare people for the modern
16:14
16:14 workforce. But employers shouldn’t rely
16:17
16:17 on the UK higher education sector or
16:19
16:19 even the secondary
16:21
16:21 secondary education sector to do a good
16:23
16:23 job of this. They need to be proactive
16:25
16:25 in developing skills. So, I think
16:26
16:26 employers should be looking at new
16:28
16:28 interesting digital ways that they can
16:31
16:31 build skills across the future workforce
16:33
16:33 that they want to hire from. So, that
16:34
16:34 doesn’t mean sort of bussing people
16:36
16:36 across the country to do sessions in
16:38
16:38 classrooms. It could mean building
16:40
16:40 really interesting job simulations that
16:42
16:42 you make available for free to people
16:44
16:44 across the country to do to essentially
16:47
16:47 try and not just develop the skills, but
16:48
16:48 maybe try and find those diamonds
16:50
16:50 >> in the rough.
16:51
16:51 >> who are actually acing your simulations
16:53
16:53 who you may want to hire.
16:54
16:54 >> Let’s have an example of someone you’ve
16:55
16:55 seen do that well. Let’s name and fame
16:57
16:57 them. Anyone coming to mind?
16:59
16:59 >> Well, one of our first partners was HSBC
17:01
17:01 and we worked with them to build some of
17:02
17:02 these sort of accelerator simulation
17:05
17:05 style programs and these reach students
17:07
17:07 all across the country in all sorts of
17:08
17:08 small towns, rural areas of the UK. And
17:11
17:11 they’re actually hiring a lot of the
17:12
17:12 people who they interacted with through
17:14
17:14 these. And these people who they might
17:15
17:15 have not hired had they just got their
17:16
17:16 CV on the desk. But because they had the
17:18
17:18 proof that this person’s actually
17:20
17:20 engaged in something they’ve built,
17:22
17:22 they’ve developed the skills to put it
17:23
17:23 into practice digitally, they thought,
17:25
17:25 “Well, actually, maybe we will give this
17:26
17:26 person a chance.” So, this is not just
17:28
17:28 the right thing to do. This is a new way
17:30
17:30 for employers to recruit by looking at
17:32
17:32 what students can do, not just how they
17:34
17:34 represent themselves on a piece of A4.
17:36
17:36 >> Right. Really clear.
17:38
17:38 I mean, something I’m wrestling with
17:40
17:40 hearing you speak is this idea, and one
17:42
17:42 of my favorite sayings is Rumi’s saying,
17:45
17:45 “What you seek is seeking you.” This
17:46
17:46 idea that when an amazing young person
17:49
17:49 and employer click, they’ve been looking
17:50
17:50 for each other all along. It wasn’t a
17:52
17:52 sales job on either part, right? Okay.
17:55
17:55 Now, let’s bear that image in mind of
17:57
17:57 two people who effectively are looking
17:58
17:58 for each other, okay?
17:60
17:60 It strikes me that over the top of their
18:03
18:03 heads is almost a new form of
18:06
18:06 recruitment warfare, where every tool in
18:09
18:09 the book is being deployed by the
18:11
18:11 applicant, and every tool in the book is
18:13
18:13 being deployed by the recruiter.
18:16
18:16 And it feels that the humans that ought
18:20
18:20 to be connecting are watching on. I just
18:23
18:23 want to get your sense of that, because
18:25
18:25 this applies in so many other worlds. It
18:27
18:27 might be applying for awards. It might
18:28
18:28 be um other fields where we are
18:30
18:30 delegating the application or the
18:32
18:32 sifting, and somehow the humans are now
18:34
18:34 taking a backseat.
18:35
18:35 >> So, if you apply for a graduate role in
18:37
18:37 the UK today, you’ve got a roughly 1 in
18:40
18:40 140 chance of winning that role. So,
18:43
18:43 graduate roles are really, really
18:45
18:45 competitive, far more competitive than
18:47
18:47 even the most elite universities. They
18:49
18:49 have less than a 1% chance of of winning
18:51
18:51 a place. And a part of that is a
18:53
18:53 increase in supply. You know, candidates
18:55
18:55 can make applications now far more
18:58
18:58 quickly now with generative AI than they
18:59
18:59 could a couple of years ago. But part of
19:01
19:01 it is also on the demand side from
19:03
19:03 employers as well, which is there’s been
19:05
19:05 a reduction in demand from employers for
19:07
19:07 graduates. Now, we’ve seen a roughly 8%
19:10
19:10 year-on-year decline amongst the big
19:11
19:11 companies
19:12
19:12 of the size of their graduate cohorts.
19:15
19:15 And that’s created a really difficult
19:16
19:16 situation for young people in the UK
19:18
19:18 because even if they did all the right
19:19
19:19 things and they got the grades at
19:21
19:21 school, going to top university, it’s
19:23
19:23 really really difficult to bag that
19:25
19:25 first role that shapes the rest of your
19:27
19:27 career trajectory. And it’s not
19:29
19:29 inevitable even if you’ve done all the
19:30
19:30 right things in your journey that you’re
19:32
19:32 going to get that big big break. There’s
19:33
19:33 almost like a indeterminism to this
19:36
19:36 system that people can no longer rely on
19:38
19:38 that kind of well carved out path. And
19:40
19:40 that kind of clear link between doing
19:42
19:42 the right thing and getting the right
19:44
19:44 outcome. But the one place I would push
19:46
19:46 back is I don’t think that automation
19:49
19:49 and certainly not AI is responsible for
19:51
19:51 some of the kind of nefarious parts of
19:53
19:53 this system. That even
19:56
19:56 4 or 5 years ago before the proper sort
19:58
19:58 of advent of generative AI, employers
20:00
20:00 were using human-based techniques to
20:02
20:02 sift applicants that weren’t
20:03
20:03 particularly sophisticated and often
20:05
20:05 were quite inhuman in terms of the
20:07
20:07 candidate experience that they gave to
20:09
20:09 those applying. To give you a sort of
20:11
20:11 example, one of the sort of dark dirty
20:13
20:13 secrets of the recruitment industry in
20:15
20:15 the UK is a lot of major companies
20:17
20:17 outsource a big part of their hiring
20:19
20:19 process to
20:21
20:21 sort of centers in foreign countries. So
20:23
20:23 your application to a the major bank or
20:26
20:26 law firm that might not be looked at
20:27
20:27 someone in the UK. It might be looked at
20:29
20:29 somebody working in a center in the
20:31
20:31 Philippines. And that in many ways is
20:33
20:33 even more nefarious than having a
20:36
20:36 AI system which has been built
20:37
20:37 specifically to analyze candidates that
20:40
20:40 judging your potential.
20:41
20:41 >> But I would have thought, Joe, you’d
20:42
20:42 quite like that because
20:44
20:44 I suspect one of your lessons is don’t
20:46
20:46 be overly swayed by the single anecdote.
20:49
20:49 That the data ought to prevail. So
20:51
20:51 provided said organization, wherever
20:53
20:53 they might be in the world, has been
20:55
20:55 selected and given clear guidelines by
20:56
20:56 the employer,
20:58
20:58 what’s your issue with that?
20:59
20:59 >> Well, I think the issue is often there’s
21:01
21:01 a lot of people trying to judge talent
21:03
21:03 in these application systems who haven’t
21:06
21:06 actually experienced the job themselves.
21:09
21:09 And it’s really difficult to have strong
21:11
21:11 judgment about something unless you’ve
21:12
21:12 actually done the learning by doing
21:15
21:15 piece.
21:16
21:16 So, I think this the system even prior
21:17
21:17 to AI was a pretty horrendous experience
21:20
21:20 from a candidate point of view. I
21:22
21:22 actually think AI has the ability to
21:24
21:24 make this system feel fairer and more
21:26
21:26 human. I’ll just give you a couple of
21:27
21:27 examples of how that could work. One
21:29
21:29 example is by actually training AI on
21:32
21:32 how to look past the polish on
21:34
21:34 applications and get the raw potential.
21:36
21:36 And the AI is is brilliant at doing
21:38
21:38 things like that and not being swayed
21:40
21:40 easily by how someone might represent
21:42
21:42 themselves on a CV and and not falling
21:44
21:44 prone to some of the biases that human
21:46
21:46 being would. So, that’s one obvious
21:47
21:47 example. Another one is just actually
21:50
21:50 response times as well. Applicants at
21:52
21:52 the moment can be waiting, you know, 3
21:54
21:54 to 6 months for a response from an
21:57
21:57 employer. And when they do get a
21:58
21:58 rejection, often it’s just a sort of
21:59
21:59 one-sentence email saying, “Oh, sorry,
22:02
22:02 you weren’t, you know, lucky enough this
22:03
22:03 time to get a place.” Now, AI can make a
22:05
22:05 decision instantly. I’d give a candidate
22:08
22:08 really high-quality personalized
22:10
22:10 feedback about why they haven’t got the
22:11
22:11 role and create that feedback loop
22:13
22:13 between being rejected and getting
22:15
22:15 better, which doesn’t currently exist in
22:17
22:17 the system as it is designed.
22:19
22:19 >> And the opposite might exist of a
22:21
22:21 candidate becoming increasingly
22:22
22:22 demoralized and eventually just
22:24
22:24 um taking their ball away.
22:26
22:26 >> Exactly. And a lot of candidates at the
22:27
22:27 moment, like when I speak to students in
22:29
22:29 our platform, they feel highly
22:30
22:30 demoralized by system which actually
22:32
22:32 isn’t very automated at the moment. So,
22:34
22:34 I think there is ways to AI to make the
22:36
22:36 system better for candidates rather than
22:38
22:38 worse. So, people shouldn’t sort of
22:40
22:40 point the finger at AI for sort of
22:42
22:42 causing this demise in the experiences
22:46
22:46 of young people coming out of
22:47
22:47 university. Things were pretty bad
22:48
22:48 before AI as well.
22:49
22:49 >> Right. So, so let’s have another example
22:52
22:52 because
22:54
22:54 uh Zero Gravity has a contract from a
22:57
22:57 government department to help young
22:59
22:59 people in their career paths. Um for the
23:02
23:02 skeptic who says, “Actually, what was
23:05
23:05 wrong with human-to-human careers
23:08
23:08 advice, for want of a better phrase?”
23:10
23:10 Uh, what’s an example that you say,
23:11
23:11 “Look, this points towards something
23:12
23:12 very useful, actually.”
23:14
23:14 >> Sure. So, that we’ve spent the past 7
23:16
23:16 years building technology to get
23:18
23:18 low-income students into top
23:19
23:19 universities and careers. And we’ve done
23:21
23:21 that mainly working with the private
23:23
23:23 sector and the higher education sector.
23:25
23:25 But, like you said, this year we
23:26
23:26 partnered in June with the UK government
23:29
23:29 to be one of the first companies in the
23:30
23:30 UK rolling out AI-based tuition in state
23:33
23:33 schools across the country. And the
23:35
23:35 reason that’s really important is not
23:37
23:37 just sort of boosting students’ grades
23:38
23:38 at school, but actually giving them the
23:40
23:40 fundamental building blocks for a future
23:43
23:43 career. Now, the biggest predictor of
23:45
23:45 whether you get a great career in the UK
23:46
23:46 is actually whether you get good grades
23:48
23:48 at GCSE and A-level. Now, it sounds
23:49
23:49 intuitive when you say it, but a lot of
23:51
23:51 people forget it because it’s not
23:53
23:53 directly obvious how getting a uh sort
23:56
23:56 of nine in your GCSE maths equates to a
23:58
23:58 career 10 years later. So, what we’re
24:00
24:00 trying to really level the playing field
24:02
24:02 in terms of who can get those
24:04
24:04 foundational building blocks of the
24:06
24:06 knowledge and skills you need to succeed
24:07
24:07 in the workforce. But, we’re doing it in
24:09
24:09 a sector which actually is very
24:12
24:12 risk-averse when it comes to tech
24:13
24:13 adoption. Now, when you think of someone
24:15
24:15 who may not want to use an AI system,
24:18
24:18 someone like a teacher probably springs
24:19
24:19 immediately to mind. So, it’s been a
24:21
24:21 really good experience working with
24:23
24:23 people who are um you know, somewhat
24:26
24:26 fearful, somewhat inert when it comes to
24:28
24:28 embracing this technology, and trying to
24:30
24:30 find a way to make it work for them. I
24:32
24:32 think increasingly, this is the problem
24:34
24:34 we’ll have to grapple with in society
24:36
24:36 because at the moment, AI adoption has
24:38
24:38 mainly been in kind of very
24:41
24:41 risk-tolerant digitized areas of the
24:43
24:43 economy like software engineering, the
24:45
24:45 law, marketing. If we really want AI to
24:48
24:48 work for normal people, getting AI to
24:50
24:50 work in places like education,
24:52
24:52 healthcare, construction is going to be
24:55
24:55 the make or break. And we’re right at
24:56
24:56 the forefront of trying to do that in
24:58
24:58 the UK education sector, which is
24:59
24:59 exciting.
24:60
24:60 >> It’s fascinating because so often where
25:02
25:02 there is
25:03
25:03 um dislike, distrust, what is
25:05
25:05 underpinning it is some lack of
25:07
25:07 understanding. And often, I’d like your
25:09
25:09 take on this actually, often a lack of
25:11
25:11 connection, of human connection.
25:14
25:14 Except that can be double-edged, too,
25:15
25:15 can’t it? Because if we overcorrect or
25:19
25:19 are drawn to that
25:21
25:21 uh that gravitational pull of human
25:23
25:23 relationships, human connections, if
25:24
25:24 we’re not careful, we’re favoring the
25:27
25:27 black book of the overprivileged.
25:29
25:29 >> Well, most people’s perception of
25:30
25:30 technology is shaped by the first time
25:32
25:32 they used it. And when most people
25:34
25:34 starting use using ChatGPT over the
25:37
25:37 course of 2023, after GPT 3.5 came out,
25:41
25:41 it was to do things like, you know,
25:42
25:42 write silly stories or songs. It used to
25:45
25:45 hallucinate. So, most teachers in the UK
25:47
25:47 education sector, their perception of AI
25:49
25:49 is not all these wonderful frontier
25:52
25:52 models that we have today that can, you
25:53
25:53 know, build production-ready software
25:55
25:55 applications and do long-running complex
25:57
25:57 tasks. It’s the silly AI of 3 years ago.
26:00
26:00 So, there’s a sort of perception issue
26:02
26:02 to sort of tackle there. And it’s
26:03
26:03 certainly not helped by this kind of
26:05
26:05 wider discourse in the tech sector about
26:08
26:08 the fact that AI, you know, may take
26:09
26:09 loads of knowledge worker jobs, that it
26:11
26:11 may end the world, that it may lead to
26:13
26:13 bad actors having unparalleled power.
26:16
26:16 So, I think all of these things loom
26:18
26:18 quite large. So, what when you’re going
26:19
26:19 into the education sector, the first
26:21
26:21 thing to do is a bit of a reset with
26:23
26:23 teachers, which is, “Look, we know
26:24
26:24 you’ve got misgivings
26:26
26:26 about AI. We would have misgivings if we
26:28
26:28 were trying to use the AI of 3 years ago
26:30
26:30 in your classroom, but we want to show
26:32
26:32 you what AI can do today. And we want to
26:35
26:35 show you it being applied in a way that
26:37
26:37 can actually, I suppose to use a bit of
26:38
26:38 a tech bro phrase, be about human
26:40
26:40 maxing, rather than machine maxing. Like
26:43
26:43 AI that lets you operate better as an
26:45
26:45 individual, rather than
26:47
26:47 disintermediating you and making you
26:49
26:49 less relevant. And one obvious way to do
26:51
26:51 that with teachers is to take a lot of
26:53
26:53 the boring administrative stuff that
26:56
26:56 ruins the teaching experience and and to
26:58
26:58 be honest ruins their life and just take
27:01
27:01 that out of their daily equation.
27:02
27:02 They’re making things like marking,
27:04
27:04 lesson planning,
27:06
27:06 um you know, writing stuff in systems to
27:08
27:08 track feedback easy to do to let the
27:10
27:10 teacher focus on the thing they really
27:11
27:11 enjoy, which is interacting with
27:13
27:13 individual students and steering their
27:15
27:15 potential. So, finding a way for AI to
27:17
27:17 human max rather than automate away
27:20
27:20 things people actually love and enjoy I
27:22
27:22 think is the key to getting into these
27:23
27:23 sectors. Right. I super super clear.
27:27
27:27 I do want to bring you back to this idea
27:29
27:29 though that a fundamental piece of the
27:32
27:32 social mobility puzzle and we need to
27:33
27:33 talk more about this
27:35
27:35 is social capital, is relationships, is
27:37
27:37 connections between people.
27:39
27:39 So, how do you think the technology that
27:42
27:42 you’re talking about plays a role in
27:44
27:44 widening that base because in the
27:46
27:46 absence of a pounds bank bank of mom and
27:50
27:50 dad
27:51
27:51 uh this has to be if not in top place,
27:54
27:54 second place. Yeah, social capital’s
27:56
27:56 really really important. We actually did
27:57
27:57 a study on this around 3 years ago with
27:59
27:59 YouGov where we uh polled thousands of
28:03
28:03 students across the UK and we found that
28:05
28:05 if you go to private school in the UK,
28:07
28:07 you’re more likely to know over 10
28:09
28:09 people who went to Oxbridge than someone
28:11
28:11 at a state school who knows a single
28:12
28:12 person who went to Oxbridge. So, these
28:14
28:14 networks uh are and network advantages
28:17
28:17 are are really unevenly spread across
28:20
28:20 the socioeconomic and geographic
28:22
28:22 distribution and they have a massive
28:24
28:24 domino effect on people’s life because
28:27
28:27 that sort of network that you build
28:29
28:29 essentially increases your surface area
28:31
28:31 of opportunity. You know, knowing a
28:32
28:32 thousand people in relevant jobs,
28:35
28:35 industries, institutions you want to
28:37
28:37 work in, that gives you sort of a
28:39
28:39 thousand darts to throw at the
28:40
28:40 dartboard. Whereas if all you’ve got is
28:42
28:42 that one, you know, distant family
28:44
28:44 member who works in the sector you want
28:46
28:46 to get into, you’ve got one single dart
28:48
28:48 and it might not hit the board. So,
28:50
28:50 networks make a massive, massive
28:51
28:51 difference. But, if we want to break
28:53
28:53 that down in the UK and make it possible
28:55
28:55 for low-income people to succeed without
28:56
28:56 networks, we fundamentally have to
28:58
28:58 change the way we do admissions and
29:00
29:00 applications.
29:01
29:01 >> Yes, and Joe, you’ve already turned left
29:04
29:04 there or right at the fork in the road.
29:06
29:06 You said, “If we’re going to help them
29:08
29:08 succeed without networks.” For the
29:09
29:09 purposes of this question, I really want
29:12
29:12 us to focus on how you would enable
29:15
29:15 them, empower them with more encounters,
29:18
29:18 um
29:18
29:18 with more networks, with more
29:19
29:19 connections because completely
29:21
29:21 understand huge, you know, blue ocean on
29:24
29:24 the first bit. But, it’s the second bit
29:27
29:27 that I think we have to come back to.
29:28
29:28 >> Yeah, so I I think it’s both. So, on on
29:30
29:30 the one hand, you take out the
29:31
29:31 arbitrariness. So, make the internships,
29:34
29:34 work experiences more meritocratic
29:36
29:36 rather than nepotistic. But, then in
29:38
29:38 terms of expanding the networks of
29:39
29:39 people who don’t have that advantage by
29:41
29:41 inheritance, the obvious thing you can
29:43
29:43 do is like a a platform like Zero
29:45
29:45 Gravity isn’t just about functionally
29:47
29:47 getting people into university and
29:48
29:48 careers. It’s about trying to create
29:50
29:50 that almost alumni network of all of
29:52
29:52 these like, you know, really, really
29:55
29:55 interesting,
29:56
29:56 um odds-defying people who’ve done it
29:59
29:59 before, who’ve come from working-class
30:00
30:00 backgrounds and got into elite
30:01
30:01 institutions. And actually bringing them
30:03
30:03 together and creating a form of
30:04
30:04 community identity. The sort of
30:06
30:06 community identity that you get
30:07
30:07 naturally if you go to an elite public
30:09
30:09 school or an elite university. You know,
30:11
30:11 when I went to the Oxford, you come out
30:13
30:13 and people identify you by the
30:15
30:15 university you went to. It’s almost like
30:16
30:16 a a badge or signifier to other people.
30:19
30:19 Now, we want to turn Zero Gravity into
30:20
30:20 that. So, if you’ve actually been
30:22
30:22 through our platform, you feel part of
30:23
30:23 something bigger than yourself and
30:25
30:25 almost a form of mutual obligation to
30:27
30:27 once you’ve gotten in, then extend the
30:29
30:29 ladder down to the next generation of
30:31
30:31 someone like you. And if we can do that,
30:33
30:33 we can bring the network advantage to
30:34
30:34 people. And yes, you’ve got to work for
30:36
30:36 it. You can’t inherit it, but it can be
30:38
30:38 something there for people like you.
30:40
30:40 >> Okay, and I’ve only met you very
30:42
30:42 recently, Joe. I think you’re thinking
30:45
30:45 there beyond
30:47
30:47 alumni networks of Zero Gravity. This is
30:49
30:49 almost hinting at Zero Gravity and other
30:51
30:51 organizations becoming institutions in
30:54
30:54 themselves over time, really evolving
30:56
30:56 their purpose. And
30:59
30:59 it strikes me that could be a very
31:00
31:00 powerful
31:01
31:01 thing for you to move into.
31:03
31:03 >> I hope so because if you really create
31:06
31:06 that sort of virtuous circle where
31:08
31:08 somebody unlocks the potential and gives
31:10
31:10 back to someone else, the ability to
31:13
31:13 scale what you’re doing and have all of
31:15
31:15 these indirect effects that you don’t
31:16
31:16 directly control yourself, that makes it
31:19
31:19 possible to to really really heighten
31:21
31:21 your impact. So, that’s why we’re sort
31:23
31:23 of in the game of trying to build that
31:25
31:25 cultural tailwind amongst our members,
31:27
31:27 not just give them the functional
31:29
31:29 support to get in.
31:29
31:29 >> Right, love this. So,
31:31
31:31 I’ve got a quick fire round for you,
31:32
31:32 Joe. I’m doing the interview in reverse
31:34
31:34 cuz my first question I haven’t even
31:35
31:35 asked yet. So,
31:37
31:37 so stand by. I’ve got 10 questions. You
31:39
31:39 can pick a number.
31:40
31:40 >> Which one? I’m going to go number one.
31:43
31:43 >> Yes. Do you know, I did have a feeling
31:45
31:45 you might go number one. Um, what
31:46
31:46 matters more, confidence or competence?
31:49
31:49 >> Competence. So, confidence, it sounds a
31:53
31:53 bit cliché, I think is like a muscle.
31:55
31:55 It’s not something that you can just
31:57
31:57 imbue in someone. It’s not some elixir
31:59
31:59 that you can drink. It’s a muscle that
32:01
32:01 you develop over time. And the way you
32:03
32:03 develop that muscle is essentially
32:04
32:04 seeing your actions in the world lead to
32:07
32:07 positive consequences. So, building your
32:09
32:09 competence will naturally lead to more
32:12
32:12 confidence over time. So, always start
32:14
32:14 there rather than trying to think how
32:15
32:15 you capture that that special confidence
32:17
32:17 drug.
32:18
32:18 >> Love that thought and that idea that
32:20
32:20 sometimes the bottom rung for that
32:22
32:22 feedback loop might be lower than we
32:24
32:24 think. Just
32:25
32:25 realizing that you are good at something
32:27
32:27 rather than it being out of reach.
32:29
32:29 Another number, please.
32:30
32:30 >> I’ll go with seven.
32:33
32:33 >> Is Britain too obsessed with Oxbridge?
32:36
32:36 >> Uh, Uh,
32:37
32:37 yes and no. So, yes because people think
32:42
32:42 that Oxbridge is this
32:44
32:44 uh set of institutions dominated by
32:46
32:46 people from private schools, if you read
32:48
32:48 any of the broadsheet newspapers.
32:50
32:50 However, actually Oxbridge is more
32:51
32:51 representative of the country now than
32:53
32:53 some of the Russell Group universities.
32:55
32:55 So, if you go to the University of of
32:57
32:57 Leeds or Bristol or Exeter, you’ll find
32:59
32:59 far more privately educated students
33:01
33:01 there from affluent backgrounds than
33:02
33:02 students from Oxbridge. So, I think
33:04
33:04 people need to look at Oxbridge in a new
33:06
33:06 light rather than sort of taking the
33:08
33:08 Brideshead Revisited version of of
33:10
33:10 Oxbridge from yesteryear. But, the
33:11
33:11 reason I say no as well is we should
33:14
33:14 just accept reality that a lot of our
33:17
33:17 leading figures in politics, in
33:20
33:20 business, in academia have come out of
33:22
33:22 these two institutions. Th- These are
33:23
33:23 globally renowned, world-leading
33:25
33:25 institutions at the forefront of of
33:27
33:27 international politics and and business.
33:29
33:29 So, it does actually really really
33:31
33:31 matter who gets into these two
33:33
33:33 universities because that could be your
33:35
33:35 next Prime Minister. In 50 years’ time,
33:37
33:37 it could be your next world-leading
33:39
33:39 entrepreneur. So, people shouldn’t
33:40
33:40 disparage it and say, “Oh, we shouldn’t
33:41
33:41 care about it.” It really does matter
33:43
33:43 who gets in.
33:44
33:44 >> Understood. Uh, final number?
33:46
33:46 >> I’ll go with 10.
33:48
33:48 >> [snorts]
33:49
33:49 >> What’s the best decision you’ve made?
33:52
33:52 >> I think the best decision I probably
33:54
33:54 made in my life is to turn down the sort
33:57
33:57 of graduate jobs I had at the end of
33:59
33:59 university and say, “Actually, I’m going
34:01
34:01 to be an entrepreneur.” Which sounds
34:02
34:02 like a fairy tale now, but actually it
34:04
34:04 was a really difficult decision and one
34:06
34:06 that was very unpopular with both my
34:08
34:08 friends and family because I was turning
34:11
34:11 away the the beauty of the London life
34:14
34:14 and the London rat race for something
34:16
34:16 that was highly highly unlikely to
34:19
34:19 succeed. And I spent the first sort of 5
34:21
34:21 months after I graduated from university
34:24
34:24 actually living back home in Morley, in
34:26
34:26 West Yorkshire, uh with my my mom and my
34:28
34:28 sister and my brother. And whilst all my
34:29
34:29 friends were sort of moving to London
34:31
34:31 and they going to these great
34:33
34:33 restaurants and nights out. I was back
34:34
34:34 home sort of scrubbing the dishes and
34:36
34:36 emptying the dishwasher because for that
34:37
34:37 first 5 months building this business
34:39
34:39 from my bedroom, it really is unsexy,
34:42
34:42 unglamorous work.
34:42
34:42 >> you turn down, Joe?
34:44
34:44 >> So, I had a training contract from a
34:46
34:46 Magic Circle law firm called Slaughter
34:48
34:48 and May.
34:49
34:49 And I knew I was I was interested in
34:51
34:51 law, but I knew I didn’t want to be a
34:52
34:52 lawyer. I was sort of a very
34:54
34:54 entrepreneurial person. But turning down
34:57
34:57 a job offer with a really clear
34:59
34:59 trajectory to earning £150,000
35:01
35:01 a year by the time you’re 23, 24 years
35:04
35:04 old for someone like me who doesn’t come
35:06
35:06 from a money background was a huge life
35:08
35:08 decision. And like I said, it was one
35:10
35:10 that was not necessarily popular with my
35:11
35:11 mom at the time cuz in in her mind it’s
35:14
35:14 like, “Why have you slaved so hard to do
35:17
35:17 well at school, get into a great
35:18
35:18 university?” And then you’ve finally got
35:20
35:20 the goose that lays the golden egg and
35:22
35:22 you’re sort of turning it away. So,
35:24
35:24 being an entrepreneur is popular when it
35:26
35:26 succeeds, but it’s not it’s not popular
35:29
35:29 at the beginning of your journey. And I
35:30
35:30 saw that firsthand.
35:31
35:31 >> Yes, I can I I I can relate to that. And
35:35
35:35 I’m not going to ask you more quick fire
35:37
35:37 questions.
35:38
35:38 Um
35:39
35:39 But but I could. I I I do want to do a
35:41
35:41 really practical quick fire round
35:43
35:43 though. Somebody listening
35:44
35:44 maybe from outside the UK, maybe inside
35:46
35:46 the UK will say, “Okay, this is all very
35:48
35:48 good, Joe. I have someone very close to
35:51
35:51 me who is currently not in education and
35:54
35:54 not in employment and they are really
35:56
35:56 struggling and it feels like they’re
35:57
35:57 getting rejection after rejection after
35:58
35:58 rejection. Give me a practical tip or
36:01
36:01 two, please.
36:03
36:03 >> I think one thing is you should treat
36:06
36:06 things as a branding problem, not as a
36:09
36:09 marketing problem. The people often
36:10
36:10 think when they’re getting hundreds of
36:12
36:12 rejections that if only they just change
36:14
36:14 their approach, you know, send
36:16
36:16 applications in a different way, you
36:17
36:17 know, change the story,
36:19
36:19 you know, apply at different times that
36:21
36:21 they’d get success. But actually often
36:22
36:22 it comes back to the fundamental
36:24
36:24 substance behind the application. So, I
36:26
36:26 I would sort of recommend to the person
36:28
36:28 that try and create a new skill. Don’t
36:31
36:31 just accept that the way you are is the
36:33
36:33 way things have to be. Learn a new skill
36:35
36:35 and apply it and bring something to the
36:37
36:37 table for an employer. So, one way you
36:39
36:39 could do that for instance is every
36:41
36:41 employer in the UK currently is looking
36:43
36:43 for young people with AI skills. And AI
36:46
36:46 skills are not being taught in the
36:47
36:47 secondary education or even the higher
36:49
36:49 education system of the UK, but it’s
36:51
36:51 easier than ever before to spin up code,
36:54
36:54 get a GitHub account, and actually start
36:56
36:56 building things and learning by doing.
36:58
36:58 So, go out there, learn a new skill, and
37:00
37:00 then bring that to life in your
37:01
37:01 application. So, don’t focus on changing
37:04
37:04 your marketing approach, focus on
37:05
37:05 changing the substance behind how you’re
37:07
37:07 representing yourself.
37:08
37:08 >> that thought of reframing here’s who I
37:10
37:10 can be um for you. The question which
37:12
37:12 was going to be my first question, I’m
37:14
37:14 slightly pleased it wasn’t with the
37:15
37:15 benefit of hindsight, I think.
37:18
37:18 The phrase we’ve touched on a few times,
37:19
37:19 social mobility.
37:20
37:20 What does it mean to you?
37:22
37:22 >> Well, it’s a horrendous piece of
37:23
37:23 academic jargon. And if you go go into a
37:25
37:25 sort of secondary school in uh sort of
37:28
37:28 South Shields and start banging about
37:30
37:30 social mobility to a lot of kids,
37:32
37:32 they’ll give you sort of blank stares in
37:33
37:33 the room, but it has become the sort of
37:35
37:35 industry phrase. So, for me it
37:37
37:37 essentially means trying to break the
37:38
37:38 link between background and opportunity.
37:41
37:41 So, your parents’ postcode and school
37:43
37:43 that you went to don’t dictate your lot
37:46
37:46 in life. And there’s all sorts of
37:47
37:47 different ways you can measure it, all
37:48
37:48 sorts of different ways you can define
37:50
37:50 it, but ultimately it comes back to that
37:52
37:52 fundamental point of any society, which
37:54
37:54 is are we doing a good job of unlocking
37:57
37:57 across our population? And if we can do
37:59
37:59 that, we can succeed and have our ideas,
38:02
38:02 our way of life shape the globe. If we
38:03
38:03 can’t do that, it’s a recipe for
38:05
38:05 disaster over the long term.
38:07
38:07 >> Right, so let’s take a step back from
38:08
38:08 that. Just briefly there,
38:10
38:10 my thinking out loud on what you’ve just
38:12
38:12 said is to get really good at that,
38:14
38:14 you’d have to get so much better at
38:16
38:16 spotting talent wherever it might be.
38:19
38:19 You’d have to get much better at
38:20
38:20 developing people in terms of
38:23
38:23 their capabilities, their skills, also
38:24
38:24 how they feel about themselves. Back to
38:26
38:26 brand, not marketing.
38:28
38:28 You’d also have to get much better about
38:30
38:30 connecting them in the first place,
38:31
38:31 making those encounters, making those
38:33
38:33 connections happen. Those seem to me,
38:35
38:35 and again, forgive the back of the
38:36
38:36 envelope, but those are probably three
38:38
38:38 of the biggest puzzle pieces that would
38:39
38:39 have to be in place if you’re going to
38:41
38:41 even have a chance.
38:42
38:42 >> And people think it’s intractable
38:44
38:44 because it is shaped by these big
38:45
38:45 forces. And like I said at the
38:47
38:47 beginning, it’s really difficult for
38:48
38:48 governments to very quickly reshape that
38:51
38:51 sort of distribution of opportunity in
38:53
38:53 society. However, we shouldn’t forget
38:55
38:55 actually how much things have changed
38:57
38:57 over the past 100 years. So, even though
38:58
38:58 we’ve had stagnation in recent times,
39:00
39:00 just looking at my own journey, 100
39:02
39:02 years ago, the number of state educated
39:05
39:05 students at Oxford University was well
39:07
39:07 lower than 10%. Compared to today, it’s
39:09
39:09 around 2/3, which is is not
39:11
39:11 representative of society, but that’s a
39:13
39:13 massive jump in a 100-year period. Now,
39:15
39:15 someone like me 100 years ago would have
39:17
39:17 been working in a textile mill in
39:19
39:19 Wakefield or maybe down the pit in in
39:21
39:21 Morley, it is possible for someone like
39:23
39:23 me to go from a small town in the UK to
39:26
39:26 Oxford University and then into a
39:27
39:27 knowledge job. So, like we shouldn’t
39:29
39:29 forget how much things have changed, but
39:32
39:32 in continuing to break that link between
39:34
39:34 background and opportunity is not
39:35
39:35 inevitable, and it’s something that we
39:36
39:36 have to be constantly focused on and
39:38
39:38 working on as a society to make sure
39:41
39:41 that we can win in the global race.
39:43
39:43 >> And just back to the long view, give us
39:45
39:45 your I mean, I’m talking relatively
39:47
39:47 recent, 10 30 years probably, sense of
39:50
39:50 progress. Um
39:53
39:53 I think I’m right in thinking that we
39:55
39:55 were on a decent trajectory, and that
39:57
39:57 has not continued. And I’m talking here
39:58
39:58 specifically about the likelihood that
40:00
40:00 an individual, quotes my words, does
40:02
40:02 better than their parents.
40:04
40:04 >> Yes, so social mobility is tending to
40:07
40:07 increase across human history. However,
40:09
40:09 since the sort of late 1980s in the UK,
40:12
40:12 we’ve seen a sort of stagnation in in
40:14
40:14 social mobility, and according to some
40:16
40:16 research, maybe even a slight decline.
40:18
40:18 But that the reason for that isn’t any
40:20
40:20 kind of radical shift in government
40:22
40:22 policy. It’s actually all to do with
40:24
40:24 technological change, which is in the
40:26
40:26 sort of ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s in the UK,
40:29
40:29 you know, we transformed from a sort of
40:31
40:31 manufacturing industry-based economy to
40:34
40:34 a knowledge worker economy. And that led
40:36
40:36 to a massive expansion in professional
40:38
40:38 jobs. Now, your granddad who might have
40:40
40:40 been a miner actually ended up being an
40:42
40:42 insurance broker. And that was a great
40:44
40:44 thing for social mobility for people who
40:46
40:46 lived in that generation, sort of baby
40:48
40:48 boomers. However, since the sort of end
40:50
40:50 of the 1980s and ’90s, this kind of
40:53
40:53 digital smartphone revolution we’ve gone
40:55
40:55 through has changed society quite a lot,
40:58
40:58 but actually not really shown up in the
40:59
40:59 economic numbers. And certainly hasn’t
41:02
41:02 shown up in terms of the expansion in
41:04
41:04 the number of knowledge worker jobs in
41:06
41:06 the economy. And that’s led to sort of a
41:09
41:09 a sort of contraction in the size of the
41:11
41:11 knowledge worker pie in terms of
41:13
41:13 opportunities that people can can grasp.
41:16
41:16 So, when you look at that in terms of
41:17
41:17 how well people are doing compared to
41:18
41:18 their parents, it’s led to a really big
41:21
41:21 shift in in the world, which is when you
41:23
41:23 look at sort of my grandparents’
41:25
41:25 generation for instance. In that
41:26
41:26 generation, roughly around 75%
41:29
41:29 ish of people did better than their
41:31
41:31 parents in economic terms by the age of
41:33
41:33 30. For my generation now, it’s only
41:35
41:35 around 40%. So, actually you’re less
41:37
41:37 likely to do better than your parents
41:41
41:41 than than average, which is quite a an
41:43
41:43 emotional shift in just the way the
41:45
41:45 world. It’s It’s a way the world that’s
41:47
41:47 gone from being something that’s almost
41:48
41:48 on this arc of progress, where you feel
41:51
41:51 like everything is getting better and
41:52
41:52 it’s inevitable that you’re going to be
41:54
41:54 richer, healthier, more successful than
41:56
41:56 your parents and grandparents.
41:57
41:57 >> And there’s something more than that
41:58
41:58 though, Joe, isn’t there? There’s the
41:60
42:00 idea that if you were basing your
42:01
42:01 feelings about the future based on the
42:04
42:04 stories you had read growing up, and it
42:06
42:06 turns out that that is not to be the
42:07
42:07 case, then that is going to lead to you
42:10
42:10 feeling
42:11
42:11 pretty disillusioned, probably. And and
42:13
42:13 and and pretty negative towards the
42:15
42:15 system or even a whole country.
42:17
42:17 >> Exactly. And you can see this in the way
42:19
42:19 that politics politicians actually
42:21
42:21 articulate what social mobility means to
42:23
42:23 them. They’ll tell the story of their
42:25
42:25 own childhood. So, you’ll have
42:26
42:26 politicians talking about I got my first
42:28
42:28 job by getting on my bike and then
42:31
42:31 putting my CV through the little letter
42:33
42:33 boxes of of company offices. And that’s
42:35
42:35 a world that just doesn’t exist today.
42:37
42:37 That is not the social mobility story of
42:39
42:39 someone applying for a graduate role in
42:41
42:41 Britain in 2026. So, we have to be
42:44
42:44 really, really careful not to take the
42:45
42:45 sort of paradigm from the ’60s, ’70s,
42:48
42:48 and ’80s and apply it to the world that
42:50
42:50 we live in today because that is a a
42:52
42:52 recipe for disillusionment amongst young
42:54
42:54 people who think that their parents and
42:56
42:56 grandparents just don’t get it.
42:57
42:57 >> Right.
42:59
42:59 If I can just push back on the final
43:01
43:01 part of what you’ve said, I can
43:03
43:03 guarantee that somebody listening will
43:06
43:06 be saying, “Joe, I love it when people
43:09
43:09 drop a note through my door. I love it
43:11
43:11 when they write me a letter. I love it
43:12
43:12 when they come and say hello to me at an
43:14
43:14 event I’ve spoken at. Actually, please
43:17
43:17 can we have more of the old school?” And
43:18
43:18 they might have just thought you’d said
43:19
43:19 that world does not exist anymore.
43:21
43:21 >> It doesn’t exist anymore. And I’m not
43:23
43:23 saying that some of the old school
43:24
43:24 approaches can’t still work. And as an
43:26
43:26 entrepreneur, I’ve written handwritten
43:28
43:28 letters to CEOs and it’s led to a new
43:31
43:31 commercial partnership. So, you can do
43:33
43:33 these things, but they’re not scalable.
43:35
43:35 If everyone in society, every young
43:36
43:36 person, writes a handwritten letter to
43:38
43:38 try and get a job, that’s not going to
43:40
43:40 change the game for someone from a
43:41
43:41 working-class background. So, I’m not
43:43
43:43 saying don’t try and do some of these
43:44
43:44 things. I’m just saying it’s not a
43:46
43:46 scalable solution for society.
43:47
43:47 >> How well are we doing in our social
43:50
43:50 mobility in the UK relative to other
43:52
43:52 countries?
43:53
43:53 >> Pretty poorly. So, um
43:55
43:55 economists measure this using a really
43:57
43:57 nerdy
43:59
43:59 uh data set called the intergenerational
44:01
44:01 elasticity of earnings, which in normal
44:03
44:03 people speak just means how much of
44:05
44:05 someone’s earnings can you predict from
44:07
44:07 their parents’ earnings. And when we
44:09
44:09 look at the UK, around 45% give or take
44:13
44:13 of your earnings over the course of your
44:14
44:14 lifetime can be predicted from how much
44:17
44:17 your parents earn growing up. Compare
44:19
44:19 that to some of our European
44:21
44:21 counterparts and you see a very
44:22
44:22 different story in other economies. So,
44:25
44:25 in Germany, it’s only roughly 30%. In
44:27
44:27 the sort of Scandi economies, it’s sort
44:29
44:29 of 20%. So, that’s a completely
44:31
44:31 different picture where in a country
44:32
44:32 like Denmark, actually your parents’
44:35
44:35 income doesn’t really dictate a lot of
44:38
44:38 your lot. But, in a country like the UK,
44:39
44:39 it’s almost like one in two quid of
44:41
44:41 everything you earn, essentially could
44:43
44:43 be on what your parents earn growing up.
44:48
44:48 >> a pretty sobering reflection, isn’t it?
44:49
44:49 Just to see that see that bigger
44:51
44:51 picture. Um
44:52
44:52 what if we put you on secondment, Joe?
44:54
44:54 What if we said, “Sorry, uh Zero Gravity
44:56
44:56 will have to run itself for a bit. Come
44:57
44:57 in, work with central government, pull
44:60
44:60 some big levers, create some big levers
45:02
45:02 if you think um that they don’t exist
45:04
45:04 and should.” What would you do?
45:06
45:06 >> I’m going to give you the very tech bro
45:08
45:08 answer, which is because social mobility
45:10
45:10 historically has been shaped by those
45:12
45:12 three forces of technological change,
45:15
45:15 war, and pandemic. I would be saying,
45:18
45:18 “Look, if we really care about social
45:20
45:20 mobility, we’ve got to go all in on
45:22
45:22 making sure this technological change
45:24
45:24 we’re currently going through works for
45:26
45:26 working class people.” So, I would be
45:27
45:27 making uh the UK becoming a a
45:30
45:30 world-leading AI adopter the number one
45:33
45:33 key government priority. I don’t think
45:35
45:35 anything else is more important than
45:37
45:37 that, personally. And that would lead to
45:39
45:39 some really big changes in policy around
45:41
45:41 energy, data center construction, uh the
45:44
45:44 support for the UK tech industry, the
45:47
45:47 adoption across government services. And
45:49
45:49 it would be a little bit weird and a
45:51
45:51 little bit wacky, but honestly, I think
45:52
45:52 if we really care about breaking that
45:54
45:54 link between background and opportunity,
45:56
45:56 getting that right is more important
45:58
45:58 than any kind of you know, beautiful
46:00
46:00 headline career or education program
46:03
46:03 that you can launch in an individual
46:04
46:04 school.
46:05
46:05 >> Right. And even if you’ve been in the
46:06
46:06 job for a day, we’re reshuffling, you’re
46:07
46:07 going to education. What does that mean?
46:10
46:10 Down from the headline, what does that
46:11
46:11 mean in practical terms? What are you
46:12
46:12 changing?
46:13
46:13 >> Well, we we know from uh research in
46:16
46:16 education that giving students a
46:18
46:18 personalized tutor can shift a student
46:21
46:21 from the middle of a class to the top of
46:22
46:22 the class roughly in around a year-long
46:24
46:24 period. But, the big issue historically
46:27
46:27 is no one’s known how to pay for that
46:29
46:29 and scale it. If you want to give
46:30
46:30 everyone a personalized tutor in the UK,
46:32
46:32 you’re paying minimum sort of 35 quid an
46:35
46:35 hour to give someone that that
46:36
46:36 opportunity. However, AI now can deliver
46:40
46:40 personalized uh tuition at the same
46:43
46:43 quality and a drastically cheaper rate
46:46
46:46 than its human counterpart. There’s
46:47
46:47 actually a recent study that came out
46:49
46:49 only 2 weeks ago uh using a a new
46:51
46:51 benchmark called StudyBench that found
46:53
46:53 that AI is actually around 100x cheaper
46:56
46:56 in delivering the same degree of
46:58
46:58 learning gain as a as a human tutor. So,
47:00
47:00 I will be really prioritizing how do we
47:03
47:03 get AI into the classroom as a new way
47:06
47:06 to learn outside the classroom and make
47:07
47:07 it the default in the UK. And yes, that
47:10
47:10 is going to lead to a massive shake-up
47:12
47:12 in terms of what goes on in our schools.
47:14
47:14 And it could lead to a weird world where
47:16
47:16 kids are are spending maybe 2 or 3 hours
47:18
47:18 on a laptop or tablet at the beginning
47:20
47:20 of the day, you know, learning the sort
47:22
47:22 of building blocks and knowledge you
47:24
47:24 need to succeed, and then project-based
47:25
47:25 stuff in the afternoon. So, really big
47:27
47:27 change at school. But, if we’re going to
47:29
47:29 get this right, we’re going to break
47:30
47:30 that link between background
47:31
47:31 opportunity. We need to be looking at
47:33
47:33 the bigger picture rather than the sort
47:35
47:35 of headline soundbite interventions that
47:38
47:38 sound great, but aren’t actually going
47:40
47:40 to move the needle on who gets into
47:41
47:41 these elite institutions and who gets on
47:43
47:43 in society.
47:44
47:44 >> On that, and these are
47:46
47:46 bold and clear ideas.
47:49
47:49 My sense is, and this is notwithstanding
47:52
47:52 the thousands of people you’ve helped
47:54
47:54 into university and into jobs,
47:56
47:56 you haven’t, Jo, spent a huge amount of
47:59
47:59 time in schools.
48:01
48:01 >> Me, personally, I’m a bit of a tech bro.
48:03
48:03 I understand why people would look at me
48:05
48:05 if you were a school teacher and you’d
48:06
48:06 say, “Well, this guy he lives out of an
48:09
48:09 office in Shoreditch. Now, what does he
48:10
48:10 know about the teaching in in Liverpool
48:13
48:13 or Manchester?” But, across our
48:15
48:15 organization as a whole, we’ve actually
48:17
48:17 hired a lot of ex-teachers into our
48:19
48:19 roles, not just in our software team,
48:21
48:21 but into our partnerships team as well.
48:23
48:23 So, our team even like just this week
48:25
48:25 have been doing classroom observations
48:27
48:27 of our AI in the classroom. So, I think
48:29
48:29 it’s really, really important that CEOs
48:32
48:32 of startups, even if they’re not
48:34
48:34 personally you know going into schools
48:36
48:36 and you’re working with students
48:37
48:37 directly, they build a culture in their
48:39
48:39 organization which is connected to the
48:41
48:41 people that they’re they’re working
48:42
48:42 with. And that isn’t the default in the
48:44
48:44 tech sector. The default in the tech
48:45
48:45 sector is actually to be a bit siloed,
48:48
48:48 be in a bubble, probably secretly think
48:49
48:49 you know better than your customers.
48:51
48:51 But, if you really want to win people
48:52
48:52 over in a sector like education, you got
48:54
48:54 to go in where the action’s happening.
48:55
48:55 >> I completely agree. Right.
48:57
48:57 Um
48:58
48:58 I’ve got two final questions. The first
49:00
49:00 one is we have a phrase at Future Forum,
49:02
49:02 “Leave your lane.”
49:04
49:04 The idea of learning from very different
49:05
49:05 worlds, very different areas. What does
49:06
49:06 that leave your lane phrase mean for
49:08
49:08 you, Joe?
49:10
49:10 >> I think it means like looking at ideas
49:13
49:13 in other sectors and applying them to
49:15
49:15 your own use case. Now, when I was
49:17
49:17 setting up Zero Gravity,
49:19
49:19 one of the big questions was how do you
49:21
49:21 identify this top talent from low-income
49:23
49:23 backgrounds? And rather than just go and
49:25
49:25 copy how this sort of education industry
49:28
49:28 tackled that problem, I actually looked
49:29
49:29 at how other organizations did the same
49:32
49:32 thing. And a lot of consumer marketing
49:34
49:34 organizations really, really care about
49:37
49:37 how do you get high-quality data that
49:39
49:39 tells you whether a consumer is relevant
49:41
49:41 to your organization or not. So, I
49:43
49:43 learned from a lot of their techniques
49:44
49:44 to sort of build a new data-driven
49:45
49:45 approach of finding this talent. So, I
49:48
49:48 learned more from how you know these big
49:49
49:49 marketing agencies would do this stuff
49:51
49:51 than any education institution. So, I
49:53
49:53 think like make sure you’re not stuck in
49:55
49:55 your industry silo. There are huge
49:57
49:57 learnings in other industries that you
49:59
49:59 can apply to any business.
50:01
50:01 >> Excellent. And thank you for your
50:04
50:04 contribution and joining us at Future
50:06
50:06 Forum in person as well on that.
50:08
50:08 Joe, our final question to all our
50:10
50:10 guests is this idea of sending a memo to
50:12
50:12 the future. So, I’d like you to look
50:15
50:15 over here to our viewer
50:17
50:17 and maybe look maybe in 10 years’ time.
50:19
50:19 It could be to a future version of
50:21
50:21 yourself, a future
50:23
50:23 leader
50:24
50:24 really still trying to crack social
50:26
50:26 mobility.
50:27
50:27 Look to them and
50:29
50:29 tell them what that memo would say.
50:32
50:32 >> I’d say don’t mess it up. Now, we’ve got
50:33
50:33 a golden opportunity to break that link
50:36
50:36 between background and opportunity with
50:38
50:38 a technology that is potentially going
50:40
50:40 to level the playing field in access to
50:42
50:42 the knowledge, skills, and networks you
50:45
50:45 need to succeed. However, if that’s
50:47
50:47 going to happen, it’s not going to be
50:49
50:49 inevitable. It’s going to be created, a
50:51
50:51 future created by people in the tech
50:53
50:53 sector caring about how you disseminate
50:55
50:55 technology to working-class people
50:57
50:57 rather than just disseminating
50:58
50:58 technology for people who are all the
50:60
51:00 affluent. And we’ve fallen into a bit of
51:02
51:02 a disease, I think, over the past 20
51:05
51:05 years of just building technology that
51:07
51:07 works brilliant for people with money.
51:09
51:09 Now, building technology where you can
51:11
51:11 get a a delivery or a takeaway in a city
51:14
51:14 in 20 minutes.
51:15
51:15 But, if you’re working-class background,
51:17
51:17 that technology probably hasn’t changed
51:18
51:18 your life for the better. We need to
51:20
51:20 make sure that AI doesn’t go in that
51:22
51:22 direction and it’s something that works
51:23
51:23 for working people.
51:25
51:25 >> Joe, thank you.
51:26
51:26 What do you say to somebody who’s
51:28
51:28 listened to this episode and thought,
51:29
51:29 you know,
51:30
51:30 I want to help crack this as well.
51:33
51:33 What can I do next?
51:34
51:34 >> Just get started. I think
51:37
51:37 one of the exciting things about AI is
51:38
51:38 that that the barriers to entry of
51:40
51:40 building a business have collapsed. Now,
51:42
51:42 when I first started Zero Gravity, and I
51:44
51:44 had to I used my pretty crummy
51:46
51:46 self-taught software engineering skills.
51:50
51:50 Uh I had to build this horrendous first
51:51
51:51 version of the platform, which was this
51:53
51:53 weird patched-together system. Anyone
51:56
51:56 can now go out and build an interesting
51:58
51:58 technology and get into the hands of
51:60
51:60 consumers in weeks, not years. So, if
52:03
52:03 you’re thinking about something, if
52:04
52:04 you’ve got an idea, just get started cuz
52:06
52:06 what you will find in the world of
52:08
52:08 entrepreneurship is people cannot
52:10
52:10 theorize the way to success in a black
52:13
52:13 box. The greatest innovations come from
52:15
52:15 actually getting stuff out there into
52:17
52:17 the ether. I’ve been starting to speak
52:19
52:19 to consumers.
52:21
52:21 >> Love that. Joe Seddon, thank you so
52:23
52:23 much. Uh I’ve absolutely loved that
52:25
52:25 conversation. Uh thank you so much for
52:27
52:27 joining us on Tomorrow.
52:28
52:28 >> Great to be on the show.
52:29
52:29 >> So, that’s our guest for today. I felt
52:31
52:31 like it was the first chapter in what
52:33
52:33 could have been a whole series. I could
52:34
52:34 have asked uh Joe and kept talking uh
52:37
52:37 for a lot longer. I hope you enjoyed it
52:39
52:39 as much as I did and I commend to you
52:41
52:41 the work of Zero Gravity. Absolutely
52:44
52:44 fascinating to see an entrepreneur in
52:46
52:46 his element getting to grips with one of
52:48
52:48 the biggest challenges facing our
52:51
52:51 country, one that helps us and forces us
52:55
52:55 to re-look at how talent gets spotted
52:57
52:57 and supported.
52:59
52:59 That fundamentally asks, how can we get
53:01
53:01 better at connecting people? Uh that
53:04
53:04 isn’t afraid to learn from different
53:06
53:06 sectors. And also, one thing that really
53:08
53:08 got me thinking, the idea of reframing
53:10
53:10 and repositioning how we think about
53:12
53:12 ourselves and how that attracts
53:14
53:14 opportunity. Um please let us know what
53:17
53:17 you thought of this conversation and uh
53:19
53:19 do connect uh with Joe and Zero Gravity
53:22
53:22 as well. If you’ve enjoyed this episode,
53:23
53:23 please share it with someone you think
53:25
53:25 would enjoy it. And please subscribe to
53:27
53:27 this channel and to our future forum
53:30
53:30 newsletter. Uh we would love you to do
53:32
53:32 that. We’d love to see you at our
53:34
53:34 gatherings uh around the UK and uh in
53:37
53:37 the next few months, too. Uh thank you
53:40
53:40 so much. It’s Tomorrow, it’s the Future
53:41
53:41 Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett, and
53:44
53:44 until next time, goodbye.
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