0:00 What I would love to see is a legal
00:03
00:03 requirement for our institutions to
00:07
00:07 recruit locally. We we have a technology
00:09
00:09 or we are seeing the emergence of a
00:11
00:11 technology that potentially can change
00:13
00:13 the world and that should be the purpose
00:15
00:15 of the technology. Curiosity is the one
00:18
00:18 thing that keeps us human and curiosity
00:22
00:22 is the door that opens opportunity for
00:25
00:25 those that are also curious. We work in
00:28
00:28 incredibly complex times with complex
00:31
00:31 organizations with people wanting to do
00:33
00:33 complex things. It’s chaotic and it’s
00:36
00:36 messy. And that’s okay because out of
00:38
00:38 the chaos comes the innovation. And out
00:40
00:40 of the innovation comes the solution to
00:43
00:43 some of the world’s biggest problems.
00:49
00:49 >> Hello and welcome to Tomorrow the Future
00:52
00:52 Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett and at
00:55
00:55 Future Forum, we are all about bringing
00:57
00:57 together very different people to shape
00:60
00:60 the future together. So here’s the
01:02
01:02 question for today. What happens when
01:05
01:05 designers, technologists, scientists,
01:08
01:08 curators become neighbors? Well, in
01:13
01:13 London’s King’s Cross and close to the
01:15
01:15 knowledge quarter is showing just that.
01:19
01:19 Uh it is home to the British Library,
01:21
01:21 the British Museum, uh the Francis Crick
01:24
01:24 Institute, uh platform 9 and
01:26
01:26 threequarters, no less. And it would be
01:29
01:29 wrong not to mention some of the world’s
01:31
01:31 leading technology companies. And we’re
01:33
01:33 joined today by the knowledge quarters
01:35
01:35 chief exec. So we can say Jody Eastwood,
01:37
01:37 welcome to tomorrow.
01:39
01:39 >> Thank you, Ollie. Delighted to be here.
01:41
01:41 >> That little roll call I rattled off. Did
01:43
01:43 I hit some of the some of the top spots
01:44
01:44 there?
01:45
01:45 >> You you absolutely did. I think that the
01:47
01:47 challenge always is when you’re working
01:49
01:49 with such an amazing diverse group of
01:52
01:52 organizations. Just naming five of them
01:55
01:55 doesn’t delve deeply into it, but it’s a
01:57
01:57 good taster.
01:58
01:58 >> Well, we’re going to explore more. So,
01:60
01:60 that is that is the taster. Uh Julie,
02:02
02:02 ask every guest on tomorrow. The first
02:04
02:04 uh same first question. It’s about
02:06
02:06 looking into the future and giving us a
02:08
02:08 glimpse. What do you see? What do you
02:10
02:10 hope to see?
02:13
02:13 >> The knowledge port is just this
02:14
02:14 extraordinary place. And on surface
02:17
02:17 value, I want it to continue to be an
02:18
02:18 extraordinary place. But for me,
02:22
02:22 there’s something really fascinating
02:24
02:24 about
02:26
02:26 the creation of innovation
02:29
02:29 and how it benefits those that are
02:32
02:32 closest to it. So I suppose my hope for
02:35
02:35 the future is that gap becomes
02:37
02:37 increasingly small. Secondly, the idea
02:41
02:41 of interdisciplinarity,
02:43
02:43 [sighs] these gaps between sectors that
02:46
02:46 we increasingly see being filled by
02:48
02:48 things like creative health and tech
02:51
02:51 bio, the acknowledgement and
02:54
02:54 understanding of the importance of these
02:56
02:56 beautiful spaces between disciplines and
02:60
02:60 the innovation that can happen there and
03:02
03:02 the benefit that that can have to our
03:05
03:05 society.
03:06
03:06 >> Right. So you’re painting already a
03:07
03:07 picture there of that heightened
03:08
03:08 potential. We bring these ingredients uh
03:12
03:12 which um
03:14
03:14 >> I must confess is completely the essence
03:15
03:15 of future forum. Why we are so happy
03:18
03:18 that our flagship events are happening
03:20
03:20 at town hall by theio in the knowledge
03:22
03:22 quarter. Um but just help us sketch it
03:25
03:25 out more when we say the knowledge
03:26
03:26 quarter. What do we mean?
03:28
03:28 >> We mean multiple things to multiple
03:30
03:30 people but fundamentally it’s a
03:32
03:32 geography. It’s a geography that’s a
03:35
03:35 onem radius of King’s Cross station. So
03:37
03:37 it’s quite broad, ideally walkable. So
03:39
03:39 you can walk from side to side in
03:41
03:41 between 20 and 30 minutes. [gasps]
03:43
03:43 But its foundation, it’s an ecosystem.
03:46
03:46 It’s a community. I think I prefer the
03:48
03:48 word community over ecosystem actually.
03:51
03:51 And the the origins really came from
03:54
03:54 this idea that Bloomsbury has been the
03:58
03:58 the intellectual heart of London for
04:01
04:01 hundreds and hundreds of years. And with
04:04
04:04 the amazing transport infrastructure and
04:06
04:06 the development to the north of King’s
04:07
04:07 Cross station, what you have is all or
04:10
04:10 what you had was all of these amazing
04:12
04:12 new institutions and organizations
04:14
04:14 moving in with knowledge at their
04:16
04:16 hearts,
04:18
04:18 which is great, but built environment
04:21
04:21 infrastructure doesn’t create connection
04:24
04:24 necessarily. You need something deeper
04:26
04:26 than that. And the idea for the
04:29
04:29 knowledge quarter came out of the fact
04:31
04:31 that neighbors weren’t talking to
04:32
04:32 neighbors. And we needed a solution to
04:34
04:34 that. We needed to have, you know, the
04:36
04:36 the the world’s most incredible authors
04:40
04:40 sitting next to the world’s most
04:42
04:42 incredible neurologists, you know,
04:44
04:44 because the more desperate worlds, the
04:47
04:47 more desperate the worlds are, the more
04:49
04:49 interesting the connections that can be
04:50
04:50 made.
04:51
04:51 >> Right. And within that, then just help
04:53
04:53 us unpack a little bit about your role.
04:56
04:56 it will already be clear to our viewer
04:58
04:58 you are uh an evangelist for [laughter]
05:00
05:00 the area and I strongly suspect a
05:03
05:03 connector within it.
05:05
05:05 >> Yeah.
05:05
05:05 >> What does it really boil down to? What
05:06
05:06 are you doing there as an organization?
05:08
05:08 >> For me it’s it’s about relationships.
05:10
05:10 It’s about trust. It’s also about
05:13
05:13 creating an organization. So I I
05:16
05:16 mentioned that we are geography, but
05:17
05:17 we’re also an organization that sits
05:21
05:21 outside of sector that sits outside of
05:24
05:24 politics. that is a convenor that can
05:28
05:28 look across this
05:31
05:31 amazing
05:33
05:33 group of organizations but also
05:35
05:35 individuals within the organizations and
05:38
05:38 can start picking them and putting them
05:40
05:40 together in new and interesting ways. So
05:42
05:42 conveners, connectors, generalists, we
05:46
05:46 we at the knowledge portal, we are all
05:48
05:48 generalists. And I often say, “I know
05:51
05:51 I’ve done my job right when I’m the
05:53
05:53 stupidest person in the room.”
05:55
05:55 >> Yes. Oh, well, we we’re [laughter]
05:57
05:57 fellow travelers, right? So, so I think
05:59
05:59 it really helps on these um
06:02
06:02 conversations to bring things even more
06:04
06:04 to life through through examples. So, I
06:07
06:07 I was tempted to lead you on a mystery
06:09
06:09 tour, but I’m even happier if you’ll
06:12
06:12 take us to stop number one. Uh and I
06:14
06:14 mean, let let’s visit somewhere. Tell us
06:16
06:16 tell us where we’re going and and what
06:18
06:18 what it could tell us. So where are we
06:19
06:19 going first?
06:21
06:21 >> I uh would love to talk about the London
06:23
06:23 AI campus.
06:24
06:24 >> Yes.
06:25
06:25 >> So the London AI campus is a
06:27
06:27 collaboration between Google and uh
06:30
06:30 Camden Council as a local authority and
06:32
06:32 Camden Learning which is their kind of
06:34
06:34 education arm. And when Google um landed
06:39
06:39 in the knowledge quarter landed in
06:41
06:41 King’s Cross, one of their strategic
06:44
06:44 aims for that huge investment was to be
06:47
06:47 a good neighbor. So, the London AI
06:50
06:50 campus took over a building in the
06:51
06:51 middle of Summerstown, and it brings
06:54
06:54 together a um a consortia of young
06:58
06:58 people within the Camden Burough to
07:02
07:02 explore AI um data science, machine
07:06
07:06 learning in the company and collectively
07:09
07:09 and collaboratively with Google
07:12
07:12 professionals, but also the way
07:14
07:14 knowledge quarter has add value to that
07:16
07:16 is by bringing in other organizations.
07:18
07:18 So we’ve brought in um Spring of Nature
07:22
07:22 to do some work around data and
07:24
07:24 publishing. We’ve brought in uh the Alan
07:26
07:26 Turing Institute. Very obvious
07:28
07:28 connection there. But creating a space
07:31
07:31 for young people to work alongside some
07:34
07:34 of the most incredible institutions and
07:37
07:37 minds that literally sits within 5
07:42
07:42 minutes of their houses is
07:44
07:44 extraordinarily powerful.
07:45
07:45 >> Yeah. And it’s a reminder, isn’t it,
07:47
07:47 that just being someone’s neighbor
07:48
07:48 doesn’t guarantee you’ll meet.
07:50
07:50 >> No.
07:50
07:50 >> As anyone who’s lived in a tower block
07:52
07:52 will no
07:53
07:53 >> recognize, sometimes I think I remember
07:55
07:55 it took a leak in the roof to meet a
07:57
07:57 [laughter] neighbor.
07:57
07:57 >> It takes a catastrophe sometimes. I
07:59
07:59 mean, CO is a great example of a a huge
08:02
08:02 national challenge creating opportunity
08:05
08:05 for people to come together. So, not
08:07
08:07 that I want to uh compare a leak to CO,
08:10
08:10 but
08:10
08:10 >> but it it does force us to well, I think
08:12
08:12 it was a leak that started CO to be
08:13
08:13 honest. Um it does remind us though back
08:17
08:17 to lockdown of the power of bringing
08:20
08:20 people physically together however
08:22
08:22 powerful the virtual world is that sense
08:24
08:24 of physically connecting close by.
08:28
08:28 It was an extraordinarily strange
08:30
08:30 period. And when when the whole of your
08:32
08:32 job, the whole of your um your remor is
08:36
08:36 to be in a geography, to be in a space,
08:40
08:40 to look people in the eye, to connect
08:42
08:42 with them, to build trust.
08:44
08:44 >> Being able to translate that into
08:47
08:47 something that’s virtual, um was
08:50
08:50 extraordinarily challenging. I think for
08:52
08:52 us at least we’d spent eight years
08:56
08:56 building our network before then. So
08:59
08:59 during co we were doing some amazing
09:01
09:01 things. So virtual private views of our
09:04
09:04 um our cultural partners we would have
09:07
09:07 the curators come online and my poor
09:09
09:09 events manager running around an
09:11
09:11 exhibition with a a camera to talk about
09:14
09:14 the exhibitions because they had to shut
09:16
09:16 their doors before they opened them.
09:17
09:17 It’s it’s such an interesting reflection
09:20
09:20 and I wonder I am going on a tangent as
09:22
09:22 our listeners might be familiar with. I
09:25
09:25 wonder if we’ve had a good enough washup
09:26
09:26 from this in terms of how do we keep
09:28
09:28 some of those lessons for the things
09:30
09:30 that brought us together and are we
09:32
09:32 completely convinced we folded them all
09:35
09:35 into education into our cultural
09:37
09:37 institutions or did we jump back? I I
09:40
09:40 think there’s definitely been an an
09:42
09:42 element of jumping back and at least for
09:46
09:46 things like inerson events and meetings,
09:48
09:48 I find that ability to be in a room with
09:50
09:50 somebody much more powerful than sitting
09:52
09:52 in a little box with other people. That
09:55
09:55 being said though, when there is a
09:57
09:57 crisis, humanity,
09:60
09:60 individuals,
10:01
10:01 they inherently want to connect with
10:04
10:04 others in order to be able to address
10:06
10:06 it.
10:06
10:06 >> And I think that that’s what you’re
10:08
10:08 getting at here. It’s not necessarily
10:10
10:10 the I don’t like hybrid events. It’s the
10:14
10:14 we have this single challenge and that
10:18
10:18 is the common thread that is tying
10:22
10:22 groups and individuals and organizations
10:24
10:24 together.
10:24
10:24 >> Right. Well, I think though that the
10:27
10:27 what you’re describing there and what
10:28
10:28 I’ve um sort of been getting us to look
10:31
10:31 back on in a way is a microcosm, isn’t
10:34
10:34 it? Because that idea of an event or
10:35
10:35 even a virtual event,
10:37
10:37 >> it’s that idea of the proximity between
10:39
10:39 a big problem and a very powerful
10:41
10:41 potential solution.
10:42
10:42 >> Yes.
10:43
10:43 >> And in a way, I think that’s what’s so
10:45
10:45 exciting about the knowledge quarter.
10:47
10:47 >> Abs. Absolutely. And
10:50
10:50 the knowledge culture
10:52
10:52 it has this certain type of gravity
10:56
10:56 >> that we see very publicly from the
11:00
11:00 incoming huge tenants of which we can
11:04
11:04 sit here and name anthropic open AI.
11:07
11:07 So it has that very kind of public
11:10
11:10 appearance, but behind the scenes
11:14
11:14 there’s also almost like a movement when
11:17
11:17 it comes to individuals within some of
11:19
11:19 these organizations.
11:21
11:21 >> So what’s your sense Jody of the
11:24
11:24 ability, appetite, progress that these
11:27
11:27 very large trillion dollar in some case
11:30
11:30 organizations to step up to the biggest
11:34
11:34 problems we face? The appetite’s
11:37
11:37 definitely there. I don’t necessarily
11:39
11:39 agree that their models are the right
11:42
11:42 models to have. We talk a lot about
11:44
11:44 inclusive innovation. Um, we talk a lot
11:47
11:47 about those being closest to innovation
11:49
11:49 benefiting from the innovation. And I do
11:52
11:52 I do worry and I’m not taring all
11:55
11:55 organizations with the same brush here
11:57
11:57 that sometimes when you get experts
12:00
12:00 there’s an assumption that they have the
12:03
12:03 solutions to the problems already.
12:04
12:04 particularly solutions that are lived by
12:08
12:08 some of our local communities. The
12:10
12:10 challenge is that having a expert solve
12:16
12:16 um a food shortage, let’s use that as an
12:19
12:19 example. In a certain world, that’s
12:21
12:21 acceptable. But when it’s about real
12:24
12:24 people with real needs and real issues
12:27
12:27 and poverty and food shortage, then
12:30
12:30 co-curating
12:32
12:32 or co-producing solutions is much more
12:35
12:35 powerful than thinking that you have the
12:36
12:36 answer to everything,
12:38
12:38 >> right? Which is why again we need to get
12:40
12:40 out more.
12:41
12:41 >> We need to break down these walls
12:42
12:42 between our cubicles and silos. Um let’s
12:46
12:46 hop back in our uh time machine if you
12:48
12:48 will. Uh stop number two. Where are we
12:50
12:50 going? I think that connecting into that
12:52
12:52 idea of communities and and research or
12:55
12:55 big institutions, it would be lovely to
12:58
12:58 look at the the living center.
12:60
12:60 >> Yes.
13:00
13:00 >> Uh so the living center is a physical
13:04
13:04 center again a collaboration between the
13:07
13:07 Francis Cre Medical Research Institute,
13:09
13:09 Europe’s largest medical research
13:12
13:12 institute and Summerstown Community
13:14
13:14 Association. So, a community association
13:16
13:16 that’s been present and delivering
13:20
13:20 incredible work in Summerstown for over
13:23
13:23 20 years.
13:25
13:25 >> The concept really was to look at how
13:28
13:28 you begin to
13:31
13:31 talk about the type of work that’s
13:33
13:33 happening within the CRE in a practical
13:35
13:35 way. So the idea of health and
13:37
13:37 well-being, the idea of uh the climate
13:40
13:40 crisis and carbon neutrality, being able
13:44
13:44 to create a trusted and safe space where
13:48
13:48 communities can come together with
13:51
13:51 projects, um you know, the future
13:53
13:53 neighborhoods 2030,
13:55
13:55 uh some large [clears throat] lottery
13:57
13:57 funded projects in a physical space
13:59
13:59 attached to Europe’s largest medical
14:01
14:01 research institute is extraordinarily
14:04
14:04 powerful
14:04
14:04 >> and and Again, someone might be thinking
14:07
14:07 physical space could be expensive and
14:09
14:09 that’s why it presumably matters to have
14:11
14:11 some of those stakeholders around the
14:13
14:13 table very early on to try and give
14:15
14:15 those breaks to make it easier to come
14:17
14:17 together in the first place.
14:18
14:18 >> Yeah. And we we have those built into
14:20
14:20 certain planning frameworks. Not that I
14:22
14:22 want to start talking about planning,
14:24
14:24 but section 106 is a a really important
14:27
14:27 mechanism to create opportunities and
14:30
14:30 spaces for community members to benefit
14:33
14:33 from large development. What’s
14:35
14:35 interesting to me is these are very very
14:39
14:39 different worlds
14:41
14:41 and they come together on equality
14:44
14:44 democratically
14:46
14:46 to look at how again landing a huge
14:50
14:50 medical research institute in one of the
14:52
14:52 most deprived areas of London
14:54
14:54 >> right because that would be a huge
14:56
14:56 missed opportunity wouldn’t it otherwise
14:58
14:58 to think that these extraordinarily
15:02
15:02 wealthy successful organizations ations
15:04
15:04 were existing cheap by jou extraordinary
15:08
15:08 disadvantage poverty. How do we make
15:10
15:10 sure
15:11
15:11 >> that alongside that idea of being good
15:15
15:15 neighbors
15:16
15:16 >> they aren’t excluding they aren’t
15:18
15:18 leaving behind all of the people living
15:20
15:20 growing up in those areas. How do we do
15:22
15:22 that?
15:23
15:23 >> Is this a how I wish we did it or how it
15:25
15:25 is being done?
15:27
15:27 >> I think um one ought to lead to the
15:29
15:29 other. So u why don’t we start in the
15:31
15:31 future and then we’ll drag everything up
15:33
15:33 to date.
15:35
15:35 What I would love to see, and thinking
15:37
15:37 right back to that future question that
15:39
15:39 you asked, what I would love to see is a
15:42
15:42 legal requirement for our institutions
15:46
15:46 to recruit locally.
15:49
15:49 >> We find ourselves in probably if not
15:53
15:53 definitely one of the most desirable
15:55
15:55 parts of the world to do business. We
15:59
15:59 have limited space. We are in the middle
16:01
16:01 of central London here. there is uh
16:03
16:03 there there’s not a huge amount of of
16:05
16:05 space available. So in in my mind,
16:09
16:09 if you want to be in this ecosystem, if
16:12
16:12 you want to be in this part of London,
16:15
16:15 surely there should be or could be a way
16:19
16:19 in which to legally obligate,
16:23
16:23 you know, whichever company to hire 10%
16:27
16:27 of their staff from within a mile radius
16:30
16:30 of a building. procure
16:33
16:33 20% of their products or services again
16:36
16:36 from that 1m radius. So feeding both
16:40
16:40 feeding the economy but also feeding the
16:44
16:44 ambition of the people that are their
16:46
16:46 neighbors. We do see some of that now.
16:48
16:48 Um Google I don’t I’ve mentioned Google
16:52
16:52 again. Google are opening uh a wonderful
16:55
16:55 public space as part of their incredible
16:58
16:58 new building in King’s Cross called the
17:00
17:00 AI exchange.
17:02
17:02 >> And the AI exchange will be one of the
17:04
17:04 first public exhibition spaces for
17:09
17:09 artificial intelligence.
17:10
17:10 >> They have a wonderful tagline for the
17:13
17:13 for the curious and the anxious.
17:15
17:15 >> So they’re really leaning into this idea
17:17
17:17 that you can’t tie AI up into a lovely
17:20
17:20 little bow. there is a level of anxiety
17:23
17:23 about it and and they should be um
17:26
17:26 advocating to explore that anxiety
17:29
17:29 >> space up to that.
17:30
17:30 >> Back to the the the original idea, the
17:32
17:32 the AI exchange is recruiting or has
17:35
17:35 recruited around 30 40 local community
17:39
17:39 members that they are training as AI
17:42
17:42 explainers. So the whole entire of that
17:45
17:45 public facing space will be staffed by
17:50
17:50 local community members who have been
17:52
17:52 upskilled, who have a meaningful job,
17:55
17:55 who are paid relatively well and who can
17:58
17:58 put, you know, I’ve done this amazing
18:00
18:00 piece of work on their CV
18:02
18:02 >> really and and demystify.
18:03
18:03 >> Yeah. And that was the the other the
18:05
18:05 other thing I was going to mention is I
18:08
18:08 think that when you work within the
18:09
18:09 knowledge economy or when you work in
18:11
18:11 these spaces that we do, we take it for
18:13
18:13 granted that we understand these jobs.
18:15
18:15 [gasps]
18:16
18:16 >> A lot of people don’t understand these
18:18
18:18 jobs. The creek again a wonderful
18:21
18:21 example of hidden jobs. They had a
18:24
18:24 laboratory glass washing technician. Now
18:27
18:27 on paper that’s scary. That looks
18:29
18:29 scientific. But ultimately, if you’ve
18:32
18:32 worked in a pub or catering, you’ve
18:34
18:34 handled glass, you’ve managed it, you
18:36
18:36 look at sort of workflows. And so, I
18:38
18:38 think that there’s something interesting
18:40
18:40 here about demystifying these roles and
18:43
18:43 creating new and interesting ways in
18:46
18:46 which people can engage with them as
18:47
18:47 well.
18:47
18:47 >> Right. I’m not going to let a phrase
18:49
18:49 slip by without a super quick reminder.
18:52
18:52 When you say the knowledge economy, just
18:55
18:55 sum that up for us because I don’t want
18:56
18:56 that to go skidding past.
18:58
18:58 >> Oh goodness. How do you sum up the
18:59
18:59 knowledge economy? um the the creation
19:02
19:02 and dissemination of knowledge. So
19:03
19:03 industries that create and share
19:05
19:05 knowledge,
19:05
19:05 >> right? Okay. And that includes
19:08
19:08 might be the libraries, museum.
19:10
19:10 >> Yeah. It could it could be I mean if you
19:12
19:12 look at knowledge quarters 100 members
19:15
19:15 the criteria for being part of that
19:17
19:17 group is that you must actively create
19:19
19:19 and share knowledge. So it’s not just
19:22
19:22 about the creation, it’s about making it
19:24
19:24 accessible either to other researchers
19:26
19:26 but also to the public as well.
19:28
19:28 >> Right. Got it. [snorts] Let’s do a quick
19:30
19:30 final stop because I’ve got
19:32
19:32 >> sorry that I want to cover. Where are we
19:33
19:33 going? That was a brilliant example
19:35
19:35 because um yeah again it’s bringing very
19:38
19:38 different types of allies together,
19:39
19:39 isn’t it? Unexpected connection.
19:40
19:40 [clears throat] Right. Third stop.
19:43
19:43 >> Third stop. Um
19:46
19:46 I’ll talk about myself. So
19:49
19:49 around 3 or 4 years ago, the knowledge
19:52
19:52 quarter was approached by British land
19:54
19:54 as a developer and they had been
19:58
19:58 investing a huge amount of money in
19:60
19:60 region’s place which is the piece of
20:02
20:02 land where uh the Houston Tower is and
20:05
20:05 they approached knowledge culture and
20:07
20:07 they said we’re really really interested
20:09
20:09 to explore what a what a co-working
20:11
20:11 space could look like that focuses in
20:14
20:14 and around social impact and the
20:17
20:17 knowledge economy and we want to do that
20:19
20:19 with you. And I said that sounds
20:22
20:22 absolutely wonderful. I have no
20:24
20:24 experience in managing a co-working
20:26
20:26 space and quite frankly that’s not our
20:29
20:29 wheelhouse. We are not space providers.
20:31
20:31 But having a physical space where we can
20:34
20:34 demonstrate the work that we do where we
20:37
20:37 can convene in a neutral area and where
20:39
20:39 we can provide affordable work space to
20:42
20:42 local community members ticks every
20:44
20:44 single one of our strategic priorities.
20:46
20:46 So we um one of our members again the
20:50
20:50 network exists is Impact Hub and Impact
20:53
20:53 Hub for those that don’t know are a
20:55
20:55 co-working space provider that are
20:57
20:57 tapped into this huge global um network
21:00
21:00 that focus on businesses uh that have
21:04
21:04 social value to them.
21:05
21:05 >> Long history in King’s Cross.
21:07
21:07 >> Long history in King’s Cross. They’ve
21:08
21:08 been on Yorkway. One of our founding
21:10
21:10 partners um actually so they’ve been
21:12
21:12 involved in the Lorish Cultter since the
21:14
21:14 very beginning. the the connections
21:16
21:16 already there, the trust is built
21:18
21:18 >> and so we sat down and over a period of
21:21
21:21 a couple of years during co actually
21:24
21:24 began to explore what this space could
21:26
21:26 look like and indeed we opened the space
21:29
21:29 2 years ago uh just opposite William
21:32
21:32 Street station. It’s full of incredible
21:36
21:36 people doing incredible work and we open
21:39
21:39 it up for our communities. We have a
21:42
21:42 community affordable workspace. We have
21:44
21:44 all of our great events there. And it’s
21:47
21:47 a real it’s a real visual demonstration
21:52
21:52 of how when you approach the space that
21:56
21:56 people are in understanding the power of
22:00
22:00 the convenor, it becomes something quite
22:03
22:03 interesting. So what I’m reading into
22:05
22:05 these [snorts] stories is that great
22:08
22:08 ideas often begin with halfformed ideas.
22:11
22:11 >> Oh go totally.
22:11
22:11 >> And you haven’t told a story Jod around
22:13
22:13 saying we came with this absolute
22:15
22:15 technical golden pitch and we said
22:17
22:17 that’s it. It was always a hunch. It’s I
22:20
22:20 think what one of the things that I love
22:23
22:23 deeply about the work that we do is it’s
22:29
22:29 all built on trust and it’s all built on
22:32
22:32 friendships and it’s all built on
22:34
22:34 relationships
22:36
22:36 which means that when you come to this
22:38
22:38 idea of collaboration often the spark
22:41
22:41 for it is an incidental conversation. I
22:44
22:44 was sitting with um wonderful woman uh
22:47
22:47 Darla Jane Corroy from Central St.
22:48
22:48 Martins yesterday and she do you know
22:52
22:52 having a nice little drink in the
22:53
22:53 evening and having a chat and catching
22:55
22:55 up and she started talking to me about
22:58
22:58 some of the ideas that she’s having
23:00
23:00 around uh incubation and acceleration
23:03
23:03 for central St. Martin students and over
23:06
23:06 the period of an hour chatting away my
23:09
23:09 brain began to connect. It began to go,
23:12
23:12 okay, I know this person over here
23:13
23:13 that’s interested in the same thing.
23:15
23:15 This person over here that’s interested
23:17
23:17 this thematic area that we could pull
23:19
23:19 in. And I find myself, you know, walking
23:21
23:21 down the road looking at vacant vacant
23:23
23:23 properties.
23:24
23:24 >> What are we going to do?
23:25
23:25 >> Thinking, oh, you know, we could do
23:26
23:26 something there, couldn’t we?
23:27
23:27 >> So, Jody, here’s a trickier question.
23:29
23:29 You’ve used three words there. trust,
23:32
23:32 friendships, and relationships. How do
23:35
23:35 we make
23:36
23:36 >> communities, ecosystems that thrive off
23:39
23:39 those three things accessible to my
23:43
23:43 word, the outsider where there isn’t yet
23:45
23:45 that trust, friendship, relationship.
23:49
23:49 >> So the way we did it, because you have
23:51
23:51 to remember at the beginning of the
23:52
23:52 knowledge cult, we were the outsider
23:54
23:54 >> and the way we did it is that we
23:56
23:56 acknowledged, respected, understood, and
23:58
23:58 worked with those that already had those
23:60
23:60 relationships. Okay, got that. Except
24:02
24:02 you’re coming in there in a powerful
24:04
24:04 convening role. I’m talking about the
24:06
24:06 individual
24:08
24:08 >> peering through the window thinking
24:11
24:11 >> I’m not channeling their actual feeling,
24:13
24:13 but they could think feels like a closed
24:15
24:15 shop.
24:15
24:15 >> This isn’t for us.
24:16
24:16 >> Yeah.
24:16
24:16 >> Yeah.
24:17
24:17 >> You know, and I don’t feel yet the
24:19
24:19 welcome is on the is on the doormat. How
24:22
24:22 do we make sure it’s loud and clear?
24:25
24:25 >> Time. And I know that that’s probably a
24:27
24:27 little bit of a copout response to that
24:29
24:29 question, but you can’t you can’t
24:32
24:32 develop these relationships overnight
24:34
24:34 and
24:37
24:37 the knowledge culture particularly it’s
24:39
24:39 this this element of consistency. So you
24:42
24:42 you need a a trusted neutral
24:46
24:46 unpolitical
24:48
24:48 sector agnostic
24:50
24:50 organization
24:52
24:52 that can you know be the be the doors
24:56
24:56 stop that holds the door open and the
24:60
25:00 reason for that is is that you sit in
25:02
25:02 this very weird world which I have done
25:04
25:04 all of my life between people citizens
25:08
25:08 individuals and
25:10
25:10 extraordinary very knowledge creation
25:12
25:12 and innovation. So having that those
25:15
25:15 people that sit in that special little
25:18
25:18 space
25:19
25:19 that can pull from that direction and
25:22
25:22 push from that direction
25:23
25:23 >> it it that’s that’s the way it’s done.
25:25
25:25 There’s no magic formula to it.
25:27
25:27 >> Well, you’re pushing an open door here
25:29
25:29 in future forum. We feel that has to
25:32
25:32 exist. Yeah. You know, um for for all
25:34
25:34 comers. Um
25:35
25:35 >> I do want to get a quick glimpse of
25:36
25:36 where Jod came from by the way because
25:38
25:38 No, you don’t. No, but I do but but I do
25:40
25:40 because before you know it is a sort of
25:42
25:42 one of a kind job in a way but but your
25:44
25:44 roots came through very different types
25:46
25:46 of organization including in in um
25:48
25:48 [snorts]
25:48
25:48 um institutions.
25:49
25:49 >> My background is very bizarre. I
25:52
25:52 [laughter]
25:53
25:53 the reason I say that is that I I I cut
25:55
25:55 my teeth working for either academic
25:58
25:58 institutions or business support
26:01
26:01 organizations. So London Chamber of
26:03
26:03 Commerce, um Queen Mary University,
26:06
26:06 British Library, so on and so forth. The
26:08
26:08 the interesting thing is that I left
26:11
26:11 home and school at 15.
26:13
26:13 >> So I I I don’t have an A level. I I
26:16
26:16 don’t have a degree. But what I do have
26:19
26:19 is the ability to straddle both of those
26:22
26:22 worlds.
26:24
26:24 We talk a lot about um language in
26:28
26:28 knowledge knowledge exchange the being
26:30
26:30 able to speak multiple languages. And
26:32
26:32 I’m not talking about, you know, French
26:34
26:34 and German, but speaking the language of
26:38
26:38 science and engineering and maths and
26:41
26:41 speaking the language of publishing and
26:42
26:42 technology and creativity
26:44
26:44 in a way that’s accessible to a group
26:48
26:48 that may not be as adapt as navigating
26:51
26:51 those sectors.
26:52
26:52 >> And when I went into academic
26:55
26:55 institutions, that was that was the job
26:57
26:57 you sat between academia and business.
26:59
26:59 So, one of my favorite old jobs, in
27:02
27:02 fact, the the job that I left to to run
27:05
27:05 knowledge cult was running one of the
27:08
27:08 four knowledge exchange hubs for the
27:10
27:10 creative industries, arts and humanities
27:12
27:12 research council funding with uh Queen
27:14
27:14 Mary University. And we would fund
27:18
27:18 collaborations between small cultural
27:20
27:20 and creative businesses and arts and
27:22
27:22 social science academics.
27:24
27:24 Fascinating. But back then, back in the
27:27
27:27 day and 15 years ago, there was real
27:29
27:29 push back against interdicciplinary
27:31
27:31 collaborations. That’s interesting.
27:32
27:32 >> And I wanted to fund a small cultural
27:36
27:36 and creative business working with a
27:38
27:38 data scientist or a neurologist or a
27:40
27:40 technologist. And the AHRC wouldn’t fund
27:43
27:43 that. And that’s why the knowledge
27:47
27:47 quarter when it came over my my my desk,
27:50
27:50 this is it. This is this is what I want
27:53
27:53 to do. And it has to be it has to be
27:55
27:55 backed. Uh and you were ahead of your
27:58
27:58 time in that sense. I I feel that it
28:00
28:00 does that is the essence of it. Now,
28:03
28:03 >> absolutely. Absolutely.
28:04
28:04 >> Um now, let’s be very unbritish and and
28:06
28:06 and brag a bit. Right. [laughter] If I
28:09
28:09 see a press release this month or this
28:12
28:12 year and it says hugely well-known
28:15
28:15 company is to open London office, it’s
28:17
28:17 going to say King’s Cross.
28:18
28:18 >> Yes.
28:19
28:19 >> Okay.
28:20
28:20 >> Let’s brag a bit. Why? There’s so many
28:23
28:23 layers to that answer and I’ll start
28:27
28:27 with the transport infrastructure. We
28:30
28:30 are sitting on three stations, St.
28:34
28:34 Pancress, uh, King’s Cross and Eastern.
28:36
28:36 You can get to everywhere in the UK and
28:40
28:40 into mainland Europe from the knowledge
28:43
28:43 quarter.
28:44
28:44 What that means is that people, talent,
28:49
28:49 ideas
28:51
28:51 move and the the epicenter for that is
28:55
28:55 King’s Cross. It is the knowledge
28:57
28:57 quarter because it’s the center of where
28:59
28:59 people move and the center of the
28:60
28:60 transible infrastructure.
29:02
29:02 >> So that’s that’s one of the reasons um
29:04
29:04 it works.
29:05
29:05 >> We have the most incredible
29:08
29:08 um collection of academic institutions
29:11
29:11 within the area. again speaking to the
29:13
29:13 need for exceptional talent. [gasps] But
29:15
29:15 what we have done over the past 12 years
29:19
29:19 that has become apparent to those that
29:20
29:20 are moving into the area is really
29:23
29:23 understood and lent into the idea of
29:25
29:25 cross- sectoral collaboration.
29:28
29:28 And so what you have is, you know, Novo
29:31
29:31 Novo Nordisk opening their center for AI
29:35
29:35 discovery within the knowledge quarter
29:37
29:37 because it straddles both life sciences
29:39
29:39 and tech. And that’s why it’s this it’s
29:42
29:42 it’s a playground for those that want to
29:45
29:45 explore opportunities that are adjacent
29:48
29:48 to their current sectors.
29:50
29:50 >> You’re reminding me of a school that
29:52
29:52 might say if you’re an allrounder, you
29:54
29:54 know, as in we’re not a hot house for
29:58
29:58 any one thing.
29:58
29:58 >> Yeah.
29:59
29:59 >> But if you like to do multiple things,
30:00
30:00 you would be welcome here. The
30:02
30:02 interesting thing is is that
30:05
30:05 if you wanted us to be [gasps]
30:09
30:09 the most incredible cultural quarter in
30:11
30:11 the country, we could be. If you wanted
30:13
30:13 us to be the UK’s epicenter for AI, data
30:18
30:18 science, and machine learning, we are.
30:20
30:20 The same goes for life sciences. We have
30:23
30:23 15 universities within a onem radius. We
30:26
30:26 we could be we could be the worldleading
30:29
30:29 cluster for multiple sectors, but that’s
30:33
30:33 what makes it interesting. What makes it
30:35
30:35 interesting is that there’s worldleading
30:37
30:37 in multiple sectors and the intersection
30:39
30:39 of those is what’s what’s make what
30:41
30:41 makes it work.
30:42
30:42 >> No, you’re right. And I have undersold
30:43
30:43 it there. It isn’t the home actually of
30:45
30:45 the generalist. It is just significant
30:47
30:47 and wide enough to be home to deep
30:49
30:49 pools. Yeah. Of of all of those talents,
30:51
30:51 which it is. Um, okay. So, I’ve got some
30:53
30:53 very quickfire questions for you, Jody.
30:55
30:55 Uh, but [snorts] they do involve you
30:57
30:57 picking a number between 1 and 10. We
30:58
30:58 got to go quickly through these. Pick a
31:00
31:00 number.
31:01
31:01 >> Seven.
31:02
31:02 >> Seven. Uh, what’s something that we
31:04
31:04 should never automate?
31:06
31:06 >> Um, [gasps]
31:09
31:09 the things that you can do with your
31:11
31:11 hands that bring other people joy. Arts,
31:13
31:13 culture, craft, craft, jewelry making,
31:16
31:16 intricate, beautiful objects that bring
31:19
31:19 us joy.
31:20
31:20 >> Excellent. We’re very happy to welcome
31:21
31:21 the Kings Foundation to talk about this
31:23
31:23 to future forum. Pick another number.
31:25
31:25 >> Three.
31:28
31:28 >> What’s a place? You can’t say the
31:30
31:30 knowledge. [laughter] What’s a place
31:31
31:31 that makes you think differently?
31:34
31:34 [sighs]
31:36
31:36 >> Um the beach.
31:38
31:38 >> The beach. I love it.
31:39
31:39 >> Yeah. I I I’m sadly I had to move out of
31:41
31:41 London a year and a half or so ago, and
31:43
31:43 I I love London. I love London to its
31:46
31:46 core, but I now find myself on the South
31:49
31:49 Coast and if I ever have a problem or
31:52
31:52 I’m feeling anxious about something or I
31:55
31:55 need to unpick an idea, then the the the
31:59
31:59 beach is is 5 minutes down the road and
32:01
32:01 I can sit there and listen to the waves
32:03
32:03 and and the peace of it. I suppose it’s
32:07
32:07 not very profound, but
32:08
32:08 >> well, it is it is hugely profound. We uh
32:11
32:11 we have many an envious listener. I’ll
32:12
32:12 count myself amongst those uh to that
32:14
32:14 answer. Um one final number
32:17
32:17 >> uh five.
32:18
32:18 >> Number five. Uh oh. And it’s on the idea
32:20
32:20 of introducing different worlds. Two
32:23
32:23 worlds that you would love to introduce
32:26
32:26 or bring close together.
32:29
32:29 >> Oh, that that’s challenging because
32:32
32:32 we do that. I think that
32:35
32:35 >> perhaps
32:37
32:37 there is a deeper role here for central
32:41
32:41 government. Yeah.
32:42
32:42 >> So, policy and innovation and good
32:47
32:47 growth,
32:49
32:49 those worlds can be could be much deeper
32:53
32:53 connected than they are.
32:54
32:54 >> And I’m sure there’s a rhyme there
32:56
32:56 around your code design rather than
32:58
32:58 saying write up your policy idea and
33:00
33:00 post it through. I know that’s not what
33:02
33:02 happens, but that idea of getting much
33:04
33:04 closer, much earlier in the process.
33:06
33:06 >> Yeah. And especially we we see so much
33:11
33:11 investment in place
33:14
33:14 built environment. We see so much
33:17
33:17 investment in talent and education
33:20
33:20 capital. [sighs]
33:22
33:22 What we don’t see investment in are the
33:25
33:25 organizations
33:26
33:26 that bring it all together
33:28
33:28 >> and create that kind of nucleus for for
33:32
33:32 excellence.
33:33
33:33 >> Right. So on that, Jody, um we’re very
33:36
33:36 fortunate. We’ve got thousands of
33:37
33:37 subscribers from around the world now on
33:39
33:39 tomorrow. Somebody’s listening to you
33:42
33:42 and they’re thinking, I think we’ve got
33:43
33:43 the ingredients here.
33:45
33:45 >> But the idea that as they look out the
33:47
33:47 window, they’re just neighbors. It’s
33:50
33:50 clear that isn’t enough. So perhaps I
33:53
33:53 have an opportunity, our listener might
33:55
33:55 be thinking to galvanize.
33:57
33:57 >> Give them some practical advice.
33:60
33:60 >> Every place is different. I think that’s
34:02
34:02 important. It would be very very easy
34:03
34:03 for me to turn around and say copy what
34:05
34:05 we do. I don’t think that you can copy
34:08
34:08 what we do, but you can take the
34:09
34:09 flavors. So
34:12
34:12 create spaces, safe spaces where people
34:15
34:15 can share ideas. And these don’t have to
34:18
34:18 be massively curated. Some of the best
34:21
34:21 spaces that we have where people bump
34:23
34:23 into each other and begin to have
34:26
34:26 interesting conversations are at our
34:28
34:28 cultural venues. So we put on a
34:29
34:29 breakfast and people go and see a
34:31
34:31 wonderful exhibition in the morning and
34:33
34:33 they have little chats. There’s no
34:35
34:35 there’s no speed networking. There’s no
34:37
34:37 stick a badge on me and my red label
34:39
34:39 means that I’m from the tech sector.
34:41
34:41 It’s all quite anonymized. It requires
34:43
34:43 somebody to want to be able to connect
34:45
34:45 with somebody else.
34:46
34:46 >> So meeting as people.
34:47
34:47 >> Yeah. So the creating the safe spaces um
34:50
34:50 and explore democratic governance. It
34:55
34:55 it’s always hard for places because
34:57
34:57 people want to own places and for me
35:00
35:00 particularly the knowledge culture as an
35:02
35:02 organization is democratic. We elect our
35:05
35:05 board for example. It’s not paid to
35:06
35:06 play. So think about how you can sit
35:09
35:09 outside of sectors and outside of policy
35:14
35:14 adjacent to but outside of the politics
35:17
35:17 in a way that creates a a very even
35:22
35:22 playing field for those that want to
35:24
35:24 come and engage with each other. A and
35:26
35:26 just so we don’t misunderstand you there
35:27
35:27 when you talk about democratic
35:30
35:30 governance I think you’re suggesting
35:32
35:32 that the the voters can be
35:34
35:34 multi-organizational there is that when
35:37
35:37 you say we are you know we
35:38
35:38 democratically you know we elect our
35:40
35:40 leadership do you mean as a knowledge
35:41
35:41 quarter do you mean across multiple how
35:43
35:43 does that work
35:44
35:44 >> so our governance is we we have a seat
35:48
35:48 um for particular sectors on our board
35:51
35:51 we have a board that govern the whole of
35:52
35:52 the the organization we have seats that
35:55
35:55 are permanent for our local authorities
35:57
35:57 and for two of our founding partners and
35:59
35:59 the remaining are divided. So we have
36:01
36:01 community interest organization as
36:03
36:03 school commercial cultural research so
36:05
36:05 on and so forth and every four years our
36:10
36:10 members vote for who they want sitting
36:12
36:12 on those seats out of the membership.
36:14
36:14 >> I think it’s such a helpful nudge
36:15
36:15 because it would be so easy to say we’re
36:16
36:16 going to come in and take this on as
36:18
36:18 opposed to open it up across sector
36:20
36:20 cross organization um
36:22
36:22 >> and design it like that as well. I think
36:24
36:24 you’ve given an amazing example or many
36:27
36:27 of this already. Our central motto at
36:29
36:29 future forum is leave your lane. That
36:31
36:31 idea that it’s okay.
36:33
36:33 >> Yeah.
36:33
36:33 >> To cross-pollinate today. So I just
36:35
36:35 wonder on that. What does that phrase
36:36
36:36 leave your lane mean to you, Jody?
36:40
36:40 >> Curiosity.
36:43
36:43 We we live in a
36:47
36:47 a world where the step change in things
36:49
36:49 like technology has been profound even
36:52
36:52 over the past couple of years. And I
36:56
36:56 believe that curiosity is the one thing
36:59
36:59 that keeps us human and curiosity is the
37:04
37:04 door that opens opportunity for those
37:06
37:06 that are also curious. You had, as I’m
37:09
37:09 sure you do from time to time, some of
37:12
37:12 the leading execs from some of the
37:14
37:14 world’s most powerful tech companies,
37:17
37:17 and you were asked to give them not a
37:18
37:18 pep talk, but a piece of encouragement.
37:21
37:21 What are you saying to them at the
37:22
37:22 moment? What are you saying to them
37:23
37:23 behind closed doors?
37:25
37:25 >> We we have a technology or we are seeing
37:26
37:26 the emergence of a technology that
37:28
37:28 potentially can change the world and
37:31
37:31 that should be the purpose of the
37:32
37:32 technology. I I sit in spaces because
37:38
37:38 the the network is so diverse where
37:41
37:41 you’ll have those that have very
37:43
37:43 particular ideas about AI for example
37:45
37:45 and those that are massive advocates the
37:48
37:48 the the amazing progression that we’ve
37:51
37:51 seen just in life sciences AI enabled
37:55
37:55 drug discovery precision medicine I mean
37:58
37:58 alphafold for God’s sake it solved a a
38:02
38:02 30 40 50-year uh problem that our our
38:05
38:05 best and brightest couldn’t solve.
38:07
38:07 >> Pioneered by Deep Mind in King
38:09
38:09 >> in King’s Cross, you know, UCL graduate,
38:12
38:12 Nobel Prize winner. Incredible,
38:14
38:14 incredible work.
38:17
38:17 We have an ethical responsibility.
38:21
38:21 They have an ethical responsibility.
38:24
38:24 The challenge is
38:26
38:26 how much of the door do you open? How
38:28
38:28 far do you allow something to be to
38:32
38:32 progress until you have the necessary
38:34
38:34 frameworks around it to control it?
38:37
38:37 That’s a really really loose response to
38:39
38:39 that. But I think that it’s I don’t like
38:42
38:42 the phrase the human in the loop because
38:43
38:43 it feels a bit like a copout. It should
38:46
38:46 be the humans controlling everything
38:49
38:49 but understanding the impact that it can
38:51
38:51 make on humanity. Well, I think you’re
38:54
38:54 drawing a very strong line under the
38:57
38:57 fact that you have next to one another
39:00
39:00 people who wrestle with the biggest
39:02
39:02 problems facing civilization
39:04
39:04 >> and potentially holding the solutions to
39:08
39:08 those in their hands
39:11
39:11 and that is just astonishing.
39:14
39:14 Absolutely astonishing.
39:16
39:16 >> Final question. We would like you to
39:19
39:19 send a memo uh to the future. So maybe
39:22
39:22 it’s to a future Jod in 10 years time.
39:24
39:24 Uh maybe to a future chief exec of the
39:27
39:27 knowledge. It could be you in 10 years
39:28
39:28 time. Um what do you look into the
39:30
39:30 future and say
39:31
39:31 >> curiosity remains at the heart of that.
39:34
39:34 It remains fundamental to the work that
39:37
39:37 we do and embracing the chaos. We we
39:42
39:42 work in incredibly complex times with
39:44
39:44 complex organizations with people
39:46
39:46 wanting to do complex things. It’s
39:49
39:49 chaotic and it’s messy and that’s okay
39:52
39:52 because out of the chaos comes the
39:53
39:53 innovation and out of the innovation
39:55
39:55 comes the solution to some of the
39:57
39:57 world’s biggest problems.
39:60
40:00 >> It’s an incredibly powerful place to
40:03
40:03 finish what I wish was a longer
40:05
40:05 conversation but for now uh firstly
40:08
40:08 thank you for having us in the knowledge
40:10
40:10 certain pleasure for our flagship
40:12
40:12 gatherings Jody Eastwood and thank you
40:13
40:13 very much for joining us on tomorrow.
40:15
40:15 >> Thank you so much. It’s been delightful.
40:17
40:17 absolutely loved it. That’s our guest
40:19
40:19 for today, Jodie Eastwood. Embrace the
40:22
40:22 chaos. I don’t know about you, but what
40:24
40:24 I’ve taken from that is this incredible
40:26
40:26 thought of creating the conditions for
40:29
40:29 unexpected collisions and connections to
40:33
40:33 happen. And what does that mean? It
40:34
40:34 means often physical space. It means
40:36
40:36 very different types of organization
40:38
40:38 coming together. It means not always
40:41
40:41 knowing where the end is going to be
40:42
40:42 when you start out on something. And
40:45
40:45 most of all for me it’s this idea of
40:48
40:48 creating conditions where people feel
40:50
40:50 safe and comfortable to sit down or
40:53
40:53 stand next to people from totally
40:54
40:54 different backgrounds who in another
40:56
40:56 room might have intimidated each other
40:58
40:58 and make them feel comfortable, help
40:60
40:60 them have ideas next to each other
41:02
41:02 because if we do that we can solve some
41:04
41:04 of the world’s biggest problems. Uh
41:06
41:06 really hope you’ve enjoyed today’s
41:08
41:08 episode. Thank you for tuning in. Please
41:10
41:10 share the conversation with anyone you
41:11
41:11 think should listen. Subscribe of course
41:14
41:14 to tomorrow and do sign up to the future
41:16
41:16 forum newsletter. That is uh even easier
41:19
41:19 than ever. Uh it’s tomorrow. It’s the
41:21
41:21 Future Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett.
41:23
41:23 Thank you for tuning in and until next
41:25
41:25 time, goodbye.
All episodes
