00:00 If we don’t embrace technology, then
we’re going to see some, you know,
00:04 pretty catastrophic and cataclysmic
events happen in the environment that
00:07 surrounds us. AI has two challenges, the
availability of the chips, that’s why
00:11 all the RAM and and GPUs and stuff have
shot up in price, and the abundance of
00:16 energy. What matters now is the
importance of being able to bring things
00:19 back from space. Who is leading the
space race in your opinion right now?
00:29 Hello and welcome to tomorrow, the
Future Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett
00:34 and here at Future Forum, we’re all
about connecting people from across very
00:38 different industries to shape the future
together. And speaking of bringing
00:43 people together, I’m absolutely
delighted to be joined by a brilliant
00:46 co-host, Victoria Usher. Victoria,
welcome. Absolutely delighted to be
00:49 here, Ollie. Well, I’ve got two thank
yous. Firstly, thank you for co-hosting,
00:52 and secondly, thank you for your
terrific choice in guests. You’re
00:56 someone I’ve seen uh working with
amazing entrepreneurs, innovators across
00:59 many years, and the pick of the crop uh
are being brought our way. So, thank
01:03 you. We’re going to have some really
exciting stories from these
01:06 entrepreneurs, pioneers, so I cannot
wait to get started.
01:10 >> Give us a sense of where we’re going
today.
01:12 We are going to space, Ollie, which is
very exciting. Space is on everybody’s
01:17 lips at the moment. We are going to be
speaking to Josh Western from
01:21 SpaceForge, an incredible company that
is using space for manufacturing
01:26 semiconductors, using the purity of
space to bring these materials back down
01:31 to Earth.
Wow. So, um one of our big themes at
01:34 Future Forum is the future of making and
materials, so this couldn’t be more
01:38 topical. Again, um well, we’ll hear all
the history, but uh space has been such
01:43 a big topic, particularly recently. And
it he’s doing incredible things. It’s a
01:47 UK business. It’s a world first, and he
is one of a set of pioneers and
01:53 entrepreneurs that are using space in
this very, very uh creative way to build
01:58 new economies. So, it’s a really
important thing for us to be talking
02:01 about on the Tomorrow podcast. Right. So
happy to have Josh with us today.
02:05 Victoria, I’m your chief listener today,
so over to you.
02:08 Wonderful. So, I want to start, Josh, by
fast-forwarding. So, we have our current
02:14 understanding of what space is, and
we’ve obviously had recent events around
02:19 new
forays into to the moon and back. Um why
02:24 is space so exciting now, and what is
going to be happening 10 years in the
02:28 future? What can we expect to see?
Well, thank you for your very kind
02:32 words, and thank you so much both for
having me. Um
02:36 space is cool.
It always has been.
02:39 Uh
that’s it’s the easiest thing to sell.
02:42 The
when it comes to the next 10 years,
02:47 a lot of the things now that are
exciting should be boring.
02:52 That’s That’s when space is has
succeeded in becoming
02:56 another sector, another industry, part
of the economy.
02:60 It’s boring.
>> Because it’s normalized. Because it’s
03:02 normalized.
>> Mhm. When space normalization, if such a
03:06 term exists, is achieved,
that’s when
03:09 the sector has really hit that
exponential growth curve. Not the sort
03:13 of getting up to a trillion that we’re
talking about now, because there are
03:15 other industries way, way bigger than
that.
03:17 >> What’s obvious now to you that wasn’t
obvious 10 years ago? I think what
03:23 matters now
that people really weren’t even
03:26 conceiving of 10 years ago is the
importance of being able to bring things
03:29 back from space.
Uh so, we’ve seen that. We had
03:34 You know, we had Mercury and Apollo. We
then invented the shuttle. I say we as a
03:39 as a royal we, it wasn’t me.
Uh and then
03:42 we had the retirement of the shuttle
program, because it was incredibly
03:44 expensive, and of course some, you know,
really horrendous accidents.
03:48 Um and then we were basically left with
two options. You had the Russian Soyuz,
03:52 which obviously we don’t work with right
now. And you eventually had SpaceX
03:56 developing the Dragon capsule.
Um until the advent of companies like
04:00 Space Forge, those were pretty much the
only two ways you could reliably get
04:03 back from space.
And 10 years ago there were very, very
04:07 few people interested in developing
re-entry technologies. Now there are
04:11 hundreds of companies, you know, all of
raised substantial sums because you need
04:15 to bring things back from space if you
want to either make them work here on
04:18 Earth or there are things that you’ve
done in space that are worthwhile, that
04:21 are important, that you are able to
bring them back. What’s changed in terms
04:25 of the re-entry part? So, is that is
that financial or Uh in part, yeah. Uh
04:30 so when Space Forge started, the average
cost of getting something to space was
04:35 about uh 35 to 45,000 dollars a
kilogram. It’s now about 5,000 dollars a
04:40 kilogram.
And that’s been in sort of 6 to 8 years
04:43 that we’ve seen that cost collapse. So
that’s made it much more sort of
04:47 commercially viable to undertake a whole
bunch of other things in space.
04:50 Um but also because that cost has then
enabled other new ecosystems to emerge.
04:54 One of them being in-space
manufacturing. Um but things which, you
04:58 know, 10, 15 years ago were really
far-fetched and and the premise of
05:01 science fiction novels like asteroid
mining, there are now companies looking
05:04 to mine asteroids.
Mining an asteroid is only useful if you
05:07 can take what was you what you mine from
the asteroid and put it somewhere where
05:11 it’s viable to be turned into something
else. Yep. So I’m going to There’s so
05:15 many different directions we can take on
that. Tell us first of all what Space
05:19 Forge does. What makes you unique?
Why now? What what’s what’s the point
05:23 now? What what pivotal point are you at
as a business?
05:27 Space Forge is a materials company first
and a space company second. So we
05:32 manufacture
compound semiconductor substrates. These
05:35 are basically the inorganic crystals
that underpin the world’s most advanced
05:39 computer chips.
Um
05:41 as a company, we already do that here on
Earth.
05:44 As of now, eight-ish months ago, we
started undertaking that process in
05:48 space.
Reason being, Earth is a wonderful place
05:51 to live. We have air that we can
breathe.
05:53 We have um gravity, which keeps us here,
and we have, albeit rising, a fairly
05:58 consistent temperature that for a large
part is just about warm enough to live
06:02 in.
06:04 But, those three things are terrible for
almost any industrial manufacturing
06:08 process, because you have to fight
against them. Whether or not you’re
06:10 producing dried pasta, whether or not
you’re trying to manufacture steel, all
06:14 of them you have to fight against.
In space, you don’t have any of those
06:18 challenges. You have an absence of
gravity. It’s not quite zero, but it’s
06:22 very, very limited amounts.
You have an incredibly high-purity
06:26 vacuum.
And just depending on which way you’re
06:28 facing, you access plus or minus 250°C.
So, you basically give any industrial
06:33 manufacturing process a running head
start.
06:36 As to what we actually do at SpaceForge,
great way to think about it is we are
06:40 basically space bakers.
Think of it a bit like making sourdough.
06:45 In space, we kind of fire up the oven,
and we make the sourdough starter.
06:49 Except in this case, it’s an incredibly
high-purity grade crystal. These
06:52 crystals are these semiconductors, but
they’re only the start of them, what we
06:56 call the seed. We then bring it back
down. We put it in an Earth-based oven.
06:60 We add more ingredients, and we bake
loaves. But again,
07:04 semiconductor loaves, which are
incredibly high purity. And you’re
07:07 sending them up in satellites. We are
indeed, yes.
07:09 >> is the satellite? Uh so, the one that we
launched was about size of a couple of
07:13 microwaves stacked on top of each other.
>> quite small. Uh that one was. Uh the
07:16 production class is going to be quite a
bit bigger. Yeah. But, we uh were able
07:21 to basically create the right sort of
chemistry event or reaction um in
07:27 something about the size of bottle of
wine at over 1,000°C.
07:31 And how much So, so so just paint for us
a picture. So, when that comes back down
07:35 to Earth,
what volumes will that be building? If
07:38 that’s the sourdough starter, how big is
the loaf of bread? So, for every um sort
07:42 of 10,000 chips or so worth of material
that we make into space, it can go on to
07:46 make about 10 million back here on
Earth.
07:49 It just
it it amazes me because it it doesn’t
07:53 sound like it’s commercially viable
because it must be such enormous
07:57 expenses from sending these materials up
into space. So, can you just talk us
08:01 through a little bit about that?
>> gladly cuz I had to convince myself.
08:04 Um
So, really it comes down to the fact
08:07 that space has gotten a lot cheaper to
access and therefore build for.
08:10 Um and the second is because
semiconductor fabs themselves are
08:13 grossly expensive. So, if I wanted to
build a fab today um that had, you know,
08:18 genuine commercial viable output, I’d
probably be looking at a price tag of up
08:22 to 20 billion.
Uh and in space, I get most of those
08:26 benefits for free.
So, even though I’ve had the cost burden
08:29 of going to space, those first few steps
that we do in that fab process
08:34 I get for a cost comparator compared to
trying to recreate that environment as
08:37 best I can on Earth. So, the cost is up
front. Yeah. But, what really matters is
08:42 that once I’ve brought those seed
crystals down, is every generation of
08:45 growth there is an exponential increase
in the amount of wafers or devices
08:50 available but an exponential collapse in
the price point.
08:54 And how many starters crystals do you
have to do you have to send up that how
08:59 often would you have to be sending them
into space? Um so, that’s the other
09:02 benefit of the fact that we only do that
starter process, not very many. Um so,
09:06 about somewhere between four and 12
missions a year will satisfy each
09:10 different material market that we go for
based on the adoption as to where they
09:13 are right now. Obviously, I hope that
very much increases.
09:16 But, you really don’t need to be going
to space that often in order to build,
09:20 you know, a a multi-billion company.
And talk us through semiconductors as
09:25 well because um you know, you can
understand the
09:28 the sense that you’re talking about the
purity of these products. Yeah.
09:31 >> There’s um
there’s no other contagion that’s going
09:34 to be coming into them, which is why
they’re so pure. What do we use them for
09:37 on Earth? Why they’re so important? How
do they fit within our infrastructure
09:40 and our supply chain?
>> What What we use everything we use them
09:44 for. They are in your kettle, they are
in your fridge, they are in your phone.
09:48 They are in uh the way that you draw
cash out of a of a cash point. They are
09:52 in everything. They underpin the entire
economy globally. They are the
09:57 bottleneck of the 21st century.
Um so, obviously artificial intelligence
10:01 it has been on a massive growth curve
right now. Right. AI has two challenges,
10:05 the availability of the chips. That’s
why all the RAM and and GPUs and stuff
10:08 have shot up in price.
And the abundance of energy.
10:12 If you have better semiconductors, then
you have time to solve the energy
10:16 problem.
Interesting. That is really interesting.
10:19 The fab that you’re talking about,
that’s a factory?
10:23 The one that would cost 20 billion
dollars.
10:24 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why isn’t there a sort of fab version of
10:28 Uber where you as a startup can rent a
little bit of someone else’s and then be
10:33 able to do the thing you want to do
without
10:36 >> So, uh Some of those exist, but not in
any meaningful capacity. So, what you’re
10:41 talking about is a pilot line. So, we
have our own pilot line which we run in
10:44 Swansea.
Um it is not very many reactors at all.
10:48 So, the reason why companies don’t like
to lease that is because one of the core
10:52 pieces of IP of every semiconductor
company is basically having your own
10:55 recipe. Right. And on that then, to what
extent is SpaceForge pioneering? Are
11:01 others doing it? Are the likes of the
big Taiwanese companies TSMC doing this?
11:07 >> They’re not doing it yet, uh but they
have started to think that we might not
11:09 be as crazy as they first thought.
Um
11:13 There aren’t There are quite a few now
in-space manufacturing companies, but we
11:17 are furthest ahead with respect to
semiconductors.
11:20 Um there are lots of other ones looking
at pharmaceuticals, they’re looking at
11:22 fiber optic cables and alloys, ceramics
to replace turbine blisks in Rolls-Royce
11:27 engines, all sorts. Yeah. So, so my
summary on this, Victoria, is you are
11:33 on satellites, your own satellites or
someone else’s? Your own satellites
11:37 sending up the satellite in order to do
some very smart manufacturing for some
11:41 of the materials that appear in the
semiconductors themselves, which then
11:45 become your semiconductors or that you
then sell on. A bit of both. So, we call
11:49 it engineered substrates cuz that’s the
language our semiconductor customers
11:52 understand, but effectively we can
either ship people the blank wafer and
11:56 they can go into the rest of the fab
process that that industry would
11:59 recognize or they can ask us to
basically customize some of the things
12:03 that we’ve made for them and they can
enter at different points in the value
12:06 chain. Right. A fab and a wafer,
Victoria, it’s like my summer holidays.
12:09 Dream come true. Right. Thank No further
questions. Thank you. That’s helped
12:12 clear that up.
>> Thank you. What I’m loving about this
12:15 story is that it’s UK-led and I’m
absolutely loving that because you hear
12:19 so much about China and the US leading
in this kind of technology. We have a
12:23 chap from Bristol and a with a factory
in Wales.
12:27 Huge congratulations. Well, thank you,
yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, on that point
12:29 around kind of the kind of like the
geopolitics of it. No country leads
12:34 in all aspects of semiconductor
manufacturing. So, China has its
12:37 strengths, Taiwan has its strengths,
America has its strengths, but Europe
12:40 also has its strengths, too.
And that is one of the things that
12:44 actually makes this business work so
well is because we can we do it in
12:48 space. We do it above
all of the geography that currently
12:51 constrains us here. Incredible. And
it sounds like you would have a deep
12:56 tech background
working in this kind of an environment.
12:60 I mean, how do you even get into a space
background? I mean, it’s not the sort of
13:03 thing when you’re, you know, 18 or 21
thinking, “Where do I go with my life?”
13:08 You know, you would think maybe I want
to be an astronaut. What do you imagine
13:11 doing as a child? You know, when you
think about space. So, how did you get
13:15 into this? What What was your first step
and what What was your qualifications?
13:18 >> Well, like every child, like what kid
doesn’t have an interest in space,
13:22 right? Like you’re bored on the car
journey home. This is, you know, quite
13:25 frankly before tablets and stuff growing
up in the 90s, I did politics at
13:28 university.
>> Politics, isn’t that interesting?
13:30 >> and I got to the I got I was getting to
the end. I had a very profound
13:34 conversation with my mom in a Morrison
supermarket cafe toward the end of my
13:38 degree.
Um uh and at the time the only place
13:42 that accepted me for a job was the
British Army. And around that time Tim
13:45 Peake, the British astronaut, got
selected for his first mission uh to the
13:48 space station, and that’s when I found
out the UK had a space industry.
13:52 So I wrote to the CEO of a space
company, and I begged him for a job.
13:56 Uh and I was graciously granted an
interview, where I’m sure I came across
13:60 as arrogant and self-assured and
everything else like most graduates do
14:03 by that point. Um and very kindly I got
a job. Uh and my first job in the space
14:07 industry was reviewing contract. But
the fact that the UK has a space sector
14:14 uh is one of the most hidden gems that I
think I think we have. Mhm.
14:18 Okay, I want to move to leadership now,
which is kind of you you’ve had your
14:22 start in um
obviously you know, Tim gave you your
14:25 your break, which is incredible. What
made you stand out by the way, do you
14:27 think?
I’d have to
14:30 I’d have to ask.
>> thousands of applications.
14:33 >> Um I don’t think they did, because so
few people know that the industry’s
14:36 around.
Um and it you know, and it’s one of the
14:39 challenges of the industry right,
because it is so technical when it’s
14:41 engineering and science-heavy, people
assume you have to be an engineer or a
14:45 scientist to to make a break. And
actually they are the entire industry is
14:49 crying out for people who know how to
tell a good story and understand what a
14:53 contract looks like and understand
things about IP. Roughly how big was
14:56 that company when you joined it?
>> UK team was I was like person 40. Yeah.
15:04 Um and it was about sort of 200 or so
when I left. Yeah. I think that wasn’t
15:08 anything to do with me. For
[clears throat] me it’s fascinating that
15:10 the graduates eye
is so easily drawn to the very large
15:14 corporation.
And yet
15:17 the most exciting innovations are
happening in much much smaller
15:20 companies.
>> I mean, it was I mean the space div- was
15:22 the space division of a very large
corporate which had, you know, had all
15:25 of the backing and everything else. And
I thought, yeah, I you know, I I have a
15:29 safe job in a good company and pension
and everything else.
15:33 But I’d look back when I came to
whatever retirement age will be by the
15:36 time I get there and go, what the bloody
hell did I do with my life?
15:40 And so, around that time, my co-founder,
who was an engineer at this company that
15:44 we were working with, he came to me and
he was like, I’ve had an idea. He told
15:47 me all about it and I went, this is the
first thing you’ve ever brought me. I
15:49 think I could sell. And he went, I think
so, too. Uh so, we went to the pub
15:54 and we found out it cost a tenner to set
up a company.
15:56 That’s how we started.
>> So, with all of that in mind, one of the
16:01 uh one of our mantra on Future Forum is
leave your lane. What have you learned
16:06 about working across all of those very
different, hugely different spaces, if
16:11 you’ll excuse the pun? I think
strangely, the most important thing I’ve
16:15 learned
uh
16:17 so, you know, when a child says, “Why?”
and then you you tell them and then they
16:20 go, “Why?” and then you tell them and
they go, “Why?” I have created myself a
16:24 superpower that I can now exhaust the
whys when they ask questions about
16:28 space.
And I think that’s really important
16:30 because it shows that I’ve learned
enough
16:32 that I can at least satisfy a
6-year-old.
16:35 But the
challenge
16:38 is the amount of things you learn that
you really wish you didn’t have to
16:41 learn. Mhm. Um so, I really like all the
external facing things. I’m good at the
16:45 business development. I’m good at
building the government connections and
16:48 and, you know, telling the space port
story. I don’t enjoy project management.
16:53 I don’t enjoy KPIs and OKRs. I don’t
enjoy HR. I don’t enjoy legal. But when
16:58 you’re two guys in a garage, you are the
lawyer. You are the HR professional.
17:03 Nobody can pull a wool wool over your
eyes ever. Can they? When you when
17:07 you’ve done all those different roles,
it’s not possible.
17:09 >> Uh
I would say I have a very good
17:11 detector, yeah.
On that why point, is the point that
17:16 you’re making that you have effectively
deepened your knowledge so in your own
17:20 mind there’s nothing you don’t know. Is
that Is that Is that Uh no, I would say
17:23 it’s more that I know what I don’t know.
Um and either you build the team around
17:28 you that that satisfy those things or
you you move them to a position where
17:32 it’s okay that you don’t know. Um and I
think you know it somewhat ironically
17:36 one of my good strengths is the fact
that I know what I’m not good at. Uh and
17:39 also if you know that you’re not good at
it you also tend not to be interested in
17:42 performing it to a level that would
actually be satisfactory. Yeah. And
17:45 you’ve continued to push your own
curiosity on that. You have to deepen
17:49 and broaden that knowledge.
>> Yeah. Are there any lanes in space by
17:53 the way? Uh yeah.
Uh so you have the geostationary belt.
17:57 Uh it’s about a third of the way to the
moon. And um that’s basically how like
18:01 you get your Sky TV and that kind of
stuff but you have your slot. Um and you
18:04 have to stay in your slot so that you
remain over the country that you’re
18:07 serving. So hang on this is a
This is a belt. Hang on. It’s a What do
18:11 you mean it’s a belt?
>> called a belt yeah but it’s a belt made
18:14 up entirely of satellites.
And so you have to be that distance away
18:18 so that your orbit corresponds to the
country that you’re trying to deliver
18:22 signal to or mobile broadband whatever.
Um and so that as Earth rotates and you
18:27 rotate you stay positioned over that
country at all times.
18:30 Wow. But so this is an example of
disappearing down rabbit holes that you
18:33 see all the time.
>> I’m fascinated by this yes and no
18:36 because I want to This is like this This
is This sounds like airplanes when they
18:40 when they have their land their slots.
Yeah yeah it’s not far off. It’s the
18:43 same kind of thing.
>> Yeah yeah. Have you got like a a tower
18:45 that’s actually telling you Uh
they have a very large global array of
18:49 radar systems and other things that help
people stay in their lane. So
18:54 fascinating isn’t it?
Fascinating. Right, I want to ask you
18:57 about leadership
um and about failure because failure’s
19:02 become more popular to talk about. You
know 10 years ago it was it was a thing
19:06 you never talked about because people
wanted to hide their failures and they
19:08 wanted to only be the success.
Um and I uh,
19:12 when we were talking before
you were you were
19:15 how in the business you really elevate
up failure. You talk about it weekly.
19:18 So, tell us a little bit more about
that. Sure. So, what we have at
19:22 SpaceForge is failure of the month.
Uh, and this was basically
19:27 in all the corporations and other things
that we’d worked for, we felt that we’d
19:30 found a lot of ways on how not to do
things.
19:32 And so, when we were about sort of five,
six people, we introduced this. Uh, and
19:37 it because we were just, you know, five
or six people, we’d just point at
19:39 somebody be like, all right, you got
failure of the month this month because
19:42 you broke that thing that we were
working on or, I don’t know, you you
19:45 forgot an attachment on the email to a
really important customer which delayed
19:48 our proposal. Something something like
that. And then as we grew and grew, it
19:51 became an entirely self-nominated
process. So, people in the company put
19:56 themselves forward for failure of the
month every month. So, I’ve won it, my
19:59 co-founder’s won it quite a few times.
Where is the business up to today? Have
20:04 you got customers? Where have you got
to? Uh, so, we have customers. We have a
20:07 mission operating in space. Um, and it’s
been doing successfully since the
20:11 summer.
>> What’s your sort of five-year plan? You
20:13 know, you talk about customers, you
know, have you got
20:15 a plan for the next three years in terms
of your customers or where your growth
20:18 strategy is?
>> certainly in the next three to five what
20:20 we do will start to become routine. So,
we’ll have a schedule, you know, we’ll
20:24 be launching once a quarter or once a
month and we’ll be hitting that
20:27 reliably. That’s where I want to be in
the next sort of three to five years.
20:30 But, SpaceForge is my life’s work,
right? And I don’t I don’t mean that to
20:34 to sound prosaic or anything, but the
anything I do after SpaceForge is going
20:39 to be easier because I can’t think of
anything more bloody difficult than
20:42 trying to make semiconductors in space,
bring them back again. It’s almost like
20:46 you’re inventing this space, isn’t it?
>> Yeah, we are. Yeah. What’s the most
20:50 difficult bit of the whole thing which
you’ve already described as difficult?
20:53 >> Regulation. So, we build our platforms
in the UK.
20:56 They get shipped to America for launch
because we don’t have much in the way of
20:59 a European solution that’s at least
affordable and reliable right now. Uh,
21:03 they get tariffed because the paperwork
to show that I’ve left America by rocket
21:06 doesn’t yet exist.
I then go into outer space where outer
21:10 space is basically treated like
international waters. So, I’m basically
21:13 a British flagged vessel.
I then make something in space that’s
21:18 more valuable than the satellite is.
So, I have the challenge that I
21:22 basically am the inverse of the space
insurance model, which is things
21:26 deteriorate the longer it’s there and
I’m instead producing value the longer
21:29 I’m up. And then I have to bring it
back. But, I can’t bring it back to the
21:32 UK cuz we don’t have the policy and
legislation to allow for it. So, I have
21:35 to land it somewhere else. And so, that
I therefore land it in Portugal where we
21:39 have an office.
>> So, so how do you get the balance right
21:42 between navigating regulation and
attempting to change it? You don’t cuz
21:47 there there isn’t there isn’t the
regulation to try and navigate. So, it’s
21:51 it’s you know, it’s proper kind of like
1400s European expansionism. Yeah. So, I
21:56 then I land in Portugal.
But, I come with a product that wasn’t
21:59 made in the EU. So, right now I have to
pay full whack import duties, customs,
22:03 tax, whatever
because it’s classed as an import to the
22:06 EU.
But, it also wasn’t made in another
22:09 country.
Right. And so, when I try to have this
22:13 conversation with a you know, with a
country’s tax office or whatever, the
22:16 response I get is I don’t get paid
enough to figure this out.
22:20 Which could be a green light for an
entrepreneur. Well, it could be.
22:23 But, it isn’t. Why is that winding you
up? It’s the wild west, go for it.
22:26 Because of the other regulation that’s
in place elsewhere.
22:31 So, unless I have unless I have approval
to land, then I might not necessarily be
22:34 granted the approval to operate my
satellite which is thereby capable of
22:37 landing. Yeah, I see. So, it’s just
problem and you’re coming in sometimes
22:40 and there’s you didn’t even know the
problem existed and then right. Okay.
22:44 >> I mean so, the way in which we work with
the regulators is we’re like we want to
22:47 do something that has never been done.
Help us find a way. And is that you or
22:51 your co-founder that has to deal with
that? Uh well, that’s that’s me and then
22:56 it’s kind of my our government affairs
and and regulation team. So, our 11th
22:60 hire was a government affairs manager.
Which is quite weird. Really weird. But
23:04 because we work with 14 different
regulators
23:07 to enable what we do. And then my
co-founder comes in and he shows them
23:10 the technology and the safety case and
how it will work and how it’s all going
23:12 to be fine. So
you’re based in Wales. Yeah. You would
23:16 think there may be an issue to get
talents to where is it in Wales that
23:21 Yeah. So well so
our space and space office and HQ’s in
23:25 Cardiff and our semiconductor line is in
Swansea. So how many deep tech folks are
23:30 there that are based around that area
cuz you would think Oh there’s us. Okay.
23:34 So how many have you got working in the
office? About 65. Okay. And they’re all
23:38 deep tech people. I mean they’ve come
from all over. So they moved to you
23:43 working for you. Okay.
>> So one of the things for a time we were
23:46 quite proud of was how many people who
had left Wales and gone internationally
23:50 moved back to Wales to come work with
us. So I think the furthest we had was
23:53 one guy moved from Nepal
back to come work with us.
23:57 And having talent
I I love I’d bring it back to my first
24:01 point, right? Space is cool. Mhm. We’re
one of the only space companies in
24:04 Wales. So immediately if you want to be
in Wales and you want to work in space,
24:09 we’re probably your only option. So both
I’m sorry about that but also it’s good
24:12 for me. How many of them are with you in
Wales?
24:15 Um
so about 40 to 50. So So the majority.
24:20 >> Yeah. The majority have moved I mean
we’ve recruited globally as well. I mean
24:23 that’s one of the UK’s strengths, right?
Is So you know if you want to work on
24:26 this technology in America, you need to
have the right green card and
24:29 citizenship and everything else. One of
the UK’s strengths is you basically get
24:32 access to rest of the world talent. So I
want to ask you actually and move the
24:36 question on from what you’re doing in
Wales and zoom out to look at
24:43 space as a whole because it is just such
a fascinating area at the moment. And
24:48 you can see this is going to be one of
the next frontiers along with the
24:52 Antarctic and the Arctic. All of these
new things that we couldn’t even
24:56 consider really 20 years ago, they’re
now there for the taking.
25:01 Who is leading the space race in your
opinion right now? And
25:05 what
do you think could happen over the next
25:08 few years geopolitically and so on? So,
to to talk about it from like a
25:13 political sense right now,
um
25:16 you you basically have a horseshoe
between America and China. And and
25:20 that’s true for a lot of other
industries as well.
25:23 But both effectively deploy the tools of
the state to galvanize their industrial
25:27 base
to do things in space.
25:30 So, America places its contracts and
issues its free tenders and the
25:34 companies apply for it. Um and in some
cases they are incredibly commercially
25:38 orientated. And in other cases not so
much so and you look at their revenue
25:42 stack and 98% of it is the US federal
government.
25:47 And on the other side you have China,
which doesn’t require the competitive
25:49 nature because of its sort of one-party
system, but ultimately still deploys its
25:53 capital into companies it wants to
support. Again,
25:56 to activate its industrial base to go to
space.
25:59 Um and a lot of what you see at the
tensions of if these two powers um
26:02 deploying more and more satellites and
more and more stations. So,
26:05 you know, one way in which America is
succeeding from political standpoint is
26:09 of course with Musk and Starlink and and
you know,
26:12 um operating most of the satellites that
are now in space is a Starlink
26:16 satellite.
But on the other side, you have
26:19 basically the retirement of the
International Space Station. You have
26:22 not necessarily the commercial Western
um
26:26 kind of low Earth orbit destinations
ready to fly yet. And yet you have the
26:29 emergence of the Chinese station, uh
Tiangong I think if I’m pronouncing that
26:33 right. And you have countries which
don’t necessarily align to the kind of
26:37 the US or the West’s perspective
beginning to use that that station. Um
26:42 and a
briefly aside, the International Space
26:44 Station quite frankly was a better
effort of diplomacy than it was
26:47 necessarily engineering. Mhm.
And then at the bottom of that
26:51 horseshoe, you have basically like the
UK and countries in Europe and other
26:57 emerging players whereby
we sort of say that there’s a free
27:00 market, but we don’t really acknowledge
that there isn’t really
27:04 and we have these like we have these
pinpricks of light and I think Space
27:07 Force is one of them whereby countries
are going to get really good at a
27:10 certain thing and that’s the thing that
they’re going to move forward with and
27:13 that’s how they either assert their
position in space or achieve their own
27:17 kind of in space dominance.
But
27:21 in all of those cases,
what’s not really caught up with the
27:25 space economy is the fact that it is an
economy.
27:29 And so to
Starlink is very beneficial, right? But
27:33 the amount of capital that has taken to
get Starlink up and running versus what
27:37 it’s making is not it’s not quite there
yet albeit you know, it’s massively
27:40 contributing to the SpaceX IPO.
Similarly,
27:45 very rarely is a rocket company actually
like economical.
27:48 So about 75% of cash from venture
capital that flows into space flows into
27:53 rocket development. Cost about half a
billion to build a rocket and get it to
27:57 fly and and it and it be successful and
history is littered with loads of
28:01 examples where loads of companies didn’t
make it that far.
28:06 But that investment has now made things
like in space manufacturing and earth
28:10 observation data and all of these things
much more viable commercially than it
28:14 had before.
But the value
28:16 of those economies and those businesses
aren’t captured in the space business.
28:20 They’re captured in so I like our value
is in the semiconductor industry and
28:23 earth observation company as much as
they’re a space business, their value is
28:27 in in the insurance markets or with
farming or with disaster prevention.
28:32 And so when we talk about what’s what’s
like what’s hot in space and what’s the
28:36 kind of what’s going to contribute to
this 1.5 trillion economy, it’s like
28:39 well actually we underpin every other
industry that’s out there already. We
28:43 just haven’t found a very good way of
telling that story. Mhm. Yeah, so space
28:46 is just is almost the format in which
it’s taking place. It’s not space within
28:51 itself.
>> Exactly. So what we what I joke about is
28:53 I I say, “Look, if we got all of the
benefits of space at the bottom of the
28:56 ocean, then we would be called Sea
Forge.” Space is the environment where
28:59 it’s best to conduct that business.
Interesting. And just out of interest,
29:03 if you were to make some big changes to
how the UK
29:08 operates that would give companies like
yours a better chance, what would those
29:11 changes be?
Uh change the color of the money.
29:15 So we don’t need more grants. What I
need a contract. I need the things that
29:20 keep me to be a British business.
Because
29:24 a lot of what we do could go be done
elsewhere. I mean, by the very nature of
29:27 it, it goes to space, right? It’s almost
becomes an irrelevant where the ground
29:31 part is conducted.
>> assume that your next customer is
29:35 actively seeking you
because that’s a great match.
29:38 >> Yeah.
What’s the problem? So my challenge is
29:42 why do it here?
29:45 In other words, why doesn’t the UK
company Uh no, it doesn’t have to be a
29:49 UK company, but it’s like so my
my road to making Space Forge a success,
29:54 it’s with government, it’s through
government, or it’s over government
29:58 because I operate in such a a congested
political environment, not necessarily
30:02 just with space, like even the
semiconductors we produce are massively
30:05 export controlled because of the things
that they can be deployed into.
30:09 So if I don’t have
that government support
30:13 then another government which is
interested in having that capability or
30:16 that technology will offer its support
to me to enable that to happen.
30:20 >> Right, and the support there, just so
I’m not conflating the two accidentally,
30:23 is government contracts? It could be. It
could be. Yeah. Okay, so when it comes
30:28 to finding paying customers
>> Yeah. is it help identifying them,
30:32 sealing the deal? What’s the issue? So
one of my challenges there is because of
30:36 the nature of the technology that we
make
30:39 if my customer isn’t government, then my
customer’s customer is. Mhm.
30:44 So, because of the aerospace and defense
applications we serve, because of the
30:47 data centers we can support or the
telecommunication networks or something,
30:50 each each market that we serve
tantamount to basically critical
30:55 national infrastructure.
And so, if we don’t if we can’t align
31:00 that support or that kind of um almost
trading mechanism in whatever way best
31:06 suits,
then we’re we’ll have to go somewhere
31:09 else
to which wants to make that work for
31:12 either their own economy or their own
security. And are you suggesting there,
31:15 Josh, sorry, I’m conscious we um I’m off
down my rabbit hole.
31:19 Are you suggesting there’s something
systematic about that misfitting? Yeah.
31:24 And so, I think so the reason I
particularly focus on the changing the
31:27 color of the money is because if you,
you know, if you looked at sort of
31:30 grants and everything today and simply
just reframe them as contracts, I think
31:34 two things would happen. One is
actually, I think it affords the
31:36 government much more protection because
if you don’t hit your milestone, then
31:39 you don’t get paid.
Um but it gives on on the flip side of
31:42 that, obviously, it gives the company
greater security because they hopefully
31:44 will get a payment up front rather than
it all being in arrears. But second,
31:48 because there has been that signal at a
state level
31:51 to deploy real cash into into startups
and and SMEs, you’ll also see the
31:57 private capital flood in much more
readily than it is currently able to.
32:01 >> So, if a minister said a phrase
beginning with the words, “Why don’t
32:04 we?” that would be music to your ears.
What do they say?
32:09 >> Why don’t we give Innovate UK
contracting power instead of grant
32:12 power?
Well, we’ll send that to Innovate UK.
32:15 That’s great. Very pithy. Thank you,
Josh. Yeah, I really like that. It It It
32:20 feels like because space is the next
frontier,
32:23 it feels like this is a real moment in
time where there’s going to be a control
32:26 element. And you can see it happening,
can’t you? You can see that I mean, that
32:29 is why, you know, a lot of the Conflict
is already in space. Totally. So,
32:35 and right now, therefore, is where maybe
the next 100 years is going to be
32:40 crafted. Is that correct?
Uh yeah. Yeah, um well, if if not
32:45 longer, really. The resources
the
32:48 um
will become constrained here. We will
32:50 have to try and find them space.
Um the ability to produce things, the
32:55 ability to basically, I mean,
ultimately, what I’m interested in is
32:59 redressing the balance.
And when I talk about redressing the
33:01 balance, I mean between us as human
civilization and the finite natural
33:05 resources that this planet has.
So, if we don’t
33:10 embrace technology to even maintain our
current standard of life, let alone
33:14 trying to improve it,
then we’re going to see some, you know,
33:18 pretty catastrophic and cataclysmic
events happen within the environment
33:21 that surrounds us.
Now, unfortunately, what we have is
33:23 actually most people are actually rather
apathetic toward the environment. Um
33:28 that’s not necessarily no fault of their
own of their own. That’s the way we’ve
33:30 been educated and and conditioned. And
so, actually, I think a true
33:34 environmentalist is actually an
incredibly rare thing. So, you have to
33:37 make it easy for people to make the
adoption and make the switch. If I can
33:40 give people semiconductors which halve
their energy bills,
33:44 great. Then I’ve I’ve bought us some
time.
33:47 And ideally at not too much of a of a
climate impact on our on our own
33:51 measures uh to make that possible. But
if I make that possible, then that buys
33:55 us time. That buys time for people to
work out how we’re going to get platinum
33:59 and lithium and other cobalt and other
things from things outside of our planet
34:02 and bring them here so we can stop
digging them out the ground and
34:05 basically stop wrecking the kind of the
finite land mass. To make things like
34:10 renewable batteries. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Um
For solar power.
34:14 Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah, I mean,
so, you know, I mean, I would I would be
34:19 focusing on intensely not only on
renewable energy, but also on nuclear.
34:22 Whether or not that’s fission or fusion,
we can create abundant electricity and
34:26 abundant power.
And that’s all going to be necessary
34:29 because, you know, ultimately as as, you
know, I mean, oil is obviously a a
34:32 particular topic over the past few
weeks. That will have to change. Mhm.
34:37 And either what will have to change is
at least our rate of consumption,
34:40 so to allow, you know, kind of
new deposits to form or whatever, or we
34:44 have to just independently change our
fuel mix. Nothing bad happens by
34:48 changing our fuel mix. So, I want to
just go back on the sustainability point
34:51 because you you you you talked a little
bit about um the semiconductor, the
34:55 materials, and um buying some time. It
feels like a contradiction because you
35:01 have to have so much energy to put these
satellites up into space in the first
35:06 place. So, it kind of feels like your
earlier argument, which is a lot of the
35:09 investment is up front.
>> energy than you think.
35:11 >> Okay, so just talk to us a little bit
about that cuz it it sounds like you’re
35:14 not sustainable, but you’re saying you
are. Yep. So, um
35:18 I would say that we’re not sustainable
yet, but we will be.
35:22 The
most uh the the thing that has the
35:26 biggest environmental impact that we do
at SpaceForge right now is actually the
35:29 transatlantic flight of our team to go
over to the US, integrate satellite onto
35:33 the rocket, and then come back again.
That’s more CO2 than anything else that
35:37 we currently do.
Uh now, part of that is because
35:40 obviously a rocket doesn’t spend much
time on Earth. So, once it, you know,
35:43 it’s out pretty quickly, um it’s still
burning fuel and everything, but it’s
35:47 burning it, you know, in the vacuum of
space.
35:50 The
challenge, and I think this is a
35:53 sector-led challenge, right? There are
lots of companies in the sector that are
35:56 B Corp certified or they’re um
uh what is it? Carbon neutral cuz they
36:01 bought some bloody trees somewhere in a
monoculture, and they’re like,
36:04 “Brilliant.” And and they’ve washed
their hands of it.
36:07 Um and space has a PR problem. And that
PR problem is that companies like that
36:10 say that they’re sustainable, and they
point to their certification or they
36:13 point to the some trees that they
bought.
36:15 But what space inherently does is it
points out that problems exist. So, if
36:19 you’re an Earth observation company, you
can point out that there is an oil spill
36:22 in the Gulf. You can point out that
there’s deforestation in the Amazon.
36:26 Still need companies or people on the
ground to go and plant more trees or
36:29 clean up that oil spill to solve that
problem.
36:32 In-space manufacturing is the first
opportunity we’ve had to genuinely do
36:36 something that leverages the space
environment that directly addresses
36:39 those problems back here on Earth.
Because if we can produce something
36:42 which consumes so much less, whether or
not that’s the raw material or the
36:46 power, and bring that back, then while
it will take a few years, we can become
36:51 the world’s first carbon negative space
company. That’s quite a claim. I like
36:55 that one.
Very briefly on the flip side,
36:59 you could easily say that space has a PR
opportunity. Yeah. You have millions of
37:05 earthlings gazing up at the skies
through
37:08 uh this year.
What do you think you and your
37:11 colleagues in the UK space industry
need to get on with if you’re to seize
37:16 that opportunity and not see it slip
through your fingers?
37:21 So, I think we need to we need to stop
talking about space like it exists in
37:25 its own
ecosystem or its own its own world. I
37:28 was going to say it’s a vacuum. I was,
yeah, but the the pun’s terrible. Um
37:34 and we need to show much better how
space is already being used by
37:37 everything. You know, it’s it’s the way
that we, you know, for
37:41 kind of before Google Maps, it was sat
nav, and now it’s Google Maps. Relies on
37:44 satellite connectivity and relies on the
cellular network. And space has already
37:48 become so embedded into so many of these
ecosystems that it’s barely even
37:51 realized that it’s there.
And it it needs to be more of that. So,
37:55 we need to we need to basically stop
talking about why space is special
37:59 and actually why space is normal. And
that will help capitalize on a load of
38:03 these opportunities. Because what you’ve
described there in that almost petri
38:07 dish is the absence of gravity, the
temperature, the cleanliness. Presumably
38:13 that fires the imaginations of a whole
generation of scientists. And although
38:17 we’ve very deliberately focused in on
what SpaceForge is doing, presumably it
38:20 has other um messages for the wider
community out there, right?
38:24 >> In- innumerable. So, paint us a picture,
then. So, uh what’s the going to space
38:28 alone, we think enables about a billion
new combinations of the periodic table
38:34 than we are currently able to achieve
here.
38:36 Now, 99.9999%
of those will be entirely useless.
38:41 But, for a great deal of them, the only
way we’re going to find out is if we try
38:44 it.
And
38:47 the
one of one of the challenges we
38:50 basically come across is like, how do
you price something like this? How do
38:53 you price something that doesn’t exist?
How do you even leverage an opportunity
38:56 like for the first time ever you can
make something in space, or you can make
38:59 something that you already make on
Earth, but much better in space? And you
39:02 go and you have a conversation with some
of the country’s top scientists or NASA
39:05 or whoever,
um and you say, you know, what would you
39:08 do with this? And often the response is,
we don’t know, because we didn’t know it
39:11 was possible.
So, who else, very briefly, who else is
39:15 alive to this?
You’re doing it within semiconductors.
39:18 Who else is already more than away? So,
uh I definitely extol the virtues of
39:22 another British company called
BioOrbital. Uh so, that’s led by uh
39:25 Katie King. She’s got I think she’s got
two two PhDs. I mean, she completely
39:29 puts me to shame on the technical front.
The uh and they’re looking at basically
39:33 developing uh a new suite of cancer
drugs. So, one of and as best as I
39:37 understand it, this would enable
chemotherapy to be done at home.
39:41 Um because obviously, you know, one of
the challenges of of going through your
39:43 cancer treatment is you have to go into
the hospital and you have to sit there
39:46 with the, you know, thing stuck in your
arm and and wait for ages and then you
39:49 you’re heavily irradiated and all of
those things. So, if you could start
39:52 doing that treatment at home, at least
you’d be much more comfortable.
39:54 One of the challenges is a bit like
semiconductors, you’re trying to produce
39:57 the purest best structure you can. It’s
the same for organic substances as well,
40:01 like drugs. Mhm. So, both
in-space manufacturing of
40:05 pharmaceuticals and in-space
manufacturing of semiconductors actually
40:07 have really extensive histories.
Um so, for semiconductors, first time a
40:12 semiconductor was made in space was
1973.
40:15 First time uh pharmaceutical was made in
space, I think it was like 1984.
40:20 Uh, which sounds a bit, um, uh, not not
Orwellian, I hope. But, um, so there
40:24 there’s actually I’m stood on the
shoulders of of giants of research in
40:27 knowing that this is already possible.
Right. It’s just now that everything has
40:30 come together that either we’re at the
right time or we’re too early. But,
40:34 we’re definitely not too late.
>> meets healthcare. Future of this is very
40:37 Future Forum. It’s so Future Forum,
absolutely. What And talking of that,
40:41 cuz I’m very excited by what we’re doing
at Future Forum, what excites you about
40:45 space? What’s the most exciting thing
you think we have to look forward to?
40:49 Uh, I think it’s discovering other life.
I think that’s the thing that excites me
40:53 the most. I’m not I’m not so much
interested in the in the human
40:56 expansionism or, you know, I mean it’ll
be cool when we land on Mars.
40:60 But, actually I think when we find that
thing that confirms that we’re not
41:04 alone, that’s the most exciting thing
that could happen.
41:07 And you think that’s possible? Oh,
absolutely. It’s far more improbable
41:10 that we are alone
than it is that we’re not. Fascinating.
41:14 Love that. Where does your power come
from? What makes you not give in to the,
41:19 um, tininess of you in the face of all
of the other beings in the universe and
41:24 on Earth that says, “You know what? We
might be small, but we can also be
41:29 mighty.”
Uh, because I think cuz even dust can
41:33 have a profound impact. So, like if I
look at it either from a space
41:36 perspective or a semiconductor
perspective, dust is a very bad thing to
41:39 have.
Um, and you know, dust can ruin your
41:42 telescope or it can ruin the
semiconductor pattern you’re trying to,
41:45 you know, etch on onto the wafer and
everything else.
41:48 And if that is a genuine piece of dust
that can have that genuine an impact,
41:51 then actually what is somebody who’s
made up of all of that stuff capable of
41:55 doing? You know, there are people who
even now we we study because of the
41:59 things that they did or the things that
happened to them.
42:01 Um,
uh, and I think one of the one of the
42:04 pitfalls of like British history is how
many people you learn about that are
42:06 basically bloody irrelevant. Um,
and so
42:11 what that tells me, I mean, I could take
that as oh well, you know, there’s just
42:14 you just go through life and it’s all
very much but actually I’m just like
42:17 well, actually it doesn’t matter what
position you start from. You have the
42:20 capacity to make an impact. Yeah. And if
you can’t find a way, you might have to
42:24 make one. So, I want to finish up, as we
always do, um on the Space Podcast, with
42:29 a memo to the future, Josh. So, if you
were leaving a memo about what we need
42:34 to be thinking about right now when it
comes to space, what would you say?
42:38 Okay.
Uh so, hello future Josh. I hope you
42:41 still have all of your hair.
42:45 What matters
and what to focus on when it when it
42:49 comes to space
is
42:52 uh and quite controversially, is
focusing on the things that matter.
42:56 Uh and I’m going to go as far to say
that that means leaving the humans back
42:60 here on Earth. It is easier to breathe
at the top of Everest than it is on
43:04 Mars.
The amount of challenges that have to be
43:06 overcome to enable human expansionism,
it’s not that they’re not worthy, but
43:10 it’s not that they’re meant for
everyone.
43:13 And so, when I think about what to focus
on, we should be focusing on the things
43:16 that we are already good at, whether or
not that’s at a nation level, whether or
43:19 not that’s an industrial base level. The
things that countries are good at, they
43:23 should be doing and pushing forward into
space. But, all that changes is it’s the
43:28 thing that they’re good at and they’ve
put it into that new environment.
43:32 Fantastic. Absolutely love that. Thank
you so much, Josh. Victoria, my head is
43:35 spinning. I think I might I have to go
and need to read or lie down for the
43:38 rest of the day. Tell tell me what you
made of that. So, I I just didn’t
43:41 understand or realize how much was
actually already taking place when you
43:44 said about the 1984 and the the 1973
expeditions to manufacture in space. I
43:50 mean, who knew there was so much
potential. Uh but also, we need to be
43:54 cautious about what we’re doing and
planning. What surprised you about what
43:58 we’ve learned today? I think the
potential for
44:02 for the for the mining, for example, for
the materials. I had kind of read about
44:06 this a little bit, but of course when
Josh really illustrated that, it made me
44:10 realize
very, very quickly we’re going to be
44:13 looking for these materials that are
running out on Earth in space. So, you
44:17 can really start to see Josh is one of
the pioneers, but you’re going to start
44:20 to see a lot more companies actually
going out there and trying to find these
44:23 materials in space.
>> Yeah, what struck me
44:26 partly surprised me, but I was just
reminded how important it is when
44:29 countries get behind programs and
industries in terms of their ability to
44:35 to back, to support. Love the tales of
HQ
44:40 in Wales attracting talent and keeping
brilliant people, but also global-minded
44:43 in terms of globally minded in terms of
talent from all around the world. And
44:47 this is back to your homeland, Victoria,
the storytellers as well, because I do
44:51 think we’ve got an opportunity.
Absolutely, and telling more of our own
44:54 stories because you just hear these very
loud voices that are shouting about what
44:58 they’re doing, but there are some really
strong players that are coming up that
45:01 aren’t maybe heard as much and we’d love
to hear their stories. Yeah, and if
45:04 you’ve got a recommendation on who we
ought to be focusing on or talking to,
45:08 we’d be very grateful for that. Thank
you, Victoria, and thank you, Joshua.
45:12 Well, that’s it for today’s episode of
Tomorrow. Thank you very much indeed for
45:16 joining us. If you’ve enjoyed this
conversation, please do check out the
45:19 series so far and share what you’ve
heard with others. We’d be hugely
45:24 grateful for that. For now,
from my co-host Victoria Usher and from
45:28 me, Olly Barrett, goodbye.
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