0:00
I used to think that my optimism made people think I was naive. But actually
0:05
what I realize now is that optimism is a hugely undervalued leadership quality.
0:10
I feel too many of us are effectively paying chopsticks on a Steinway. 40 years ago about 50% of UK pension
0:17
funds were invested in UK businesses. Now it’s 5%. What happened?
Introduction
0:24
Hello and welcome to Tomorrow the Future Forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett and
0:30
here at the Future Forum, we’re all about bringing people together from very different worlds to shape the future
0:36
together. [snorts] Our guest today is one of the great champions of British
0:43
business. As the leader of the British Chambers of Commerce for 160 years, the
0:48
organization that she leads has been all about connecting great businesses,
0:54
helping them to succeed, and helping them to grow. not just here in the UK, but around the world as well. She’s had
1:02
a fascinating career spanning number 10, uh, spanning the worlds of entertainment
1:07
and also hats that have been worn in education as well. So, we’re going to
1:12
talk a lot about the future of business, but also the future of Britain and the
1:17
global economy as well. Siobhan Havland, welcome to tomorrow. Hello. Delighted to be here. Sean, we’ll
A vision for the future of work and AI
1:24
talk a lot about your journey and the different hats you’ve worn over the years, but first we ask all our guests
1:30
on Future Forum and at tomorrow to give us a glimpse of the future. When you look out there, what do you see?
1:37
So AI has reinvented our workplaces. All
1:43
our difficult and boring tasks are done by artificial intelligence. And we use
1:48
our incredible humanity to spend time on creativity and in our communities,
1:56
educating our children, looking after our, you know, wider communities, our older people, and maybe we all have a
2:05
universal basic income. Very interesting. Right. I’m tempted to go off down that rabbit hole, but maybe
2:11
we’ll put a pin in. That’s a a liberating view of the future. the idea that we could be released to reconnect
2:17
with each other. I like that very much. I’m fascinated, Siobhan, you’ve worked in so many different worlds for uh for
2:23
several years. You were right at the heart of number 10, making sure that the prime minister connected with the
2:28
leading business thinkers of the day. Uh turn the clock back and you helped open one of Disney’s parks out in Paris. If
2:35
we were to take a longer view and look back, is there a thread that you think has connected your career dots?
From Disney to Downing Street
2:42
U it’s definitely eclectic if you look at it as a in a certain way. Um but
2:48
actually what connects almost all my roles is they were new. They didn’t
2:54
exist before. Uh they were in a new country. They were definitely in a new industry having gone from you know 20
3:01
years in private business startup scaleups massive corporates to government. Uh, I used to have a
3:10
postcard on my wall at home when when I was growing up that said, “Pquapa, why not?
3:15
Let’s give it a go.” So, I think maybe the connection there is is is taking trying something new, taking a risk.
3:21
And in the examples where you’ve been given a challenge and it was new, it was a new role. Uh, perhaps the plan wasn’t
3:27
even written. Um, in a different world, somebody in your
3:32
shoes would have looked at it and said, “I I don’t have the courage. I don’t have the bravery.” What do you think
3:39
about you makes you say, “Yeah, bring it on.” So, I am an eternal optimist. My uh
Why optimism creates better leaders
3:48
friends at university used to say, “I don’t so much have rosetinted spectacles, but a rose tinted brain.” Uh
3:54
and I think that uh positive optimism allows you to uh along with probably
4:00
some probably slightly over overconfidence allows you just to think, “Yeah, I’ll give that a go. How hard
4:06
could it be? Let’s try.” You are so close, possibly closer than almost anyone I know to what’s on the
What British businesses are worrying about today
4:12
minds of British businesses in particular. And that’s because the British Chamber spans every corner of
4:17
the UK. Apart from AI, what do you think businesses are talking about today that
4:24
they almost certainly weren’t talking about a few years ago? Yeah, that’s a that’s a very good
4:29
question. Well, they’re definitely talking about people,
4:34
which they always talk about because let’s remember, businesses are people, but now they’re talking about young
4:41
people and how they are struggling to bring young people into their workforce and how they’re arriving at work without
4:49
the soft skills because they can be taught hard skills, but without the soft skills that businesses have been used to
4:56
receiving. Um they’re also talking about challenges of political leadership. So
5:03
you noted that I joined government from the private sector 2016, three months before the EU referendum. Since that
5:11
moment, you know, my five years in government to the day, three prime ministers, two general elections, an EU
5:17
referendum, actual leaving of the EU, and a year of COVID. And then I took this job at the British Chambers of
5:23
Commerce, and we had three prime ministers in a year. So isn’t quite quite quite quite such a funny story and
5:29
that continued political instability is definitely a challenge for British business.
5:35
And on that what do you say to the listener who’s thinking well isn’t this
5:41
a bit like you know a sailor might view the weather you know it will rage um all
5:47
around it’s just something to be dealt with. It doesn’t really affect us. Um,
5:52
you have the ear of thousands of businesses. Um, it sounds like you see it a bit differently.
Political uncertainty and the cost of instability
5:58
I think we’d like to think and they do. Businesses uh do crack like they crack
6:03
on. They’re focused on their thing. Focus on your P&L. Crack on. That’s what they want to do. They don’t they want
6:08
government to get out of the way. But with the changes,
6:14
it means that somebody coming in new wants to bring us something new. And there’s always a concern that there’s
6:20
more regulation, more cost to business. Um I was with the Cambridge Chamber of
6:27
Commerce recently and we had a discussion about we had a debate at El Cathedral, very beautiful 11th century,
6:32
founded by a woman apparently. Um who uh the motion was, is the UK
6:38
still the best place to do business? And it was a tight call because businesses
6:43
are struggling under a tsunami of costs and they’ve been coming and with each
6:49
new change of political leadership, it feels like there’s something new for business to deal with. And it’s that
6:55
lack of clarity. It’s that uncertainty that’s a struggle. Yeah. And that leads to that sort of uh
7:01
inertia, doesn’t it? It leads to that inactivity. Um putting off decisions to invest, to hire,
7:06
right? because you know what you what you’re doing we want business to invest because that’s that’s what drives the economy and what we’re doing is we’re
7:13
sort of holding on to our cash and waiting and then waiting again. So I keep hinting at the breadth of
7:18
network about uh what’s on the minds of businesses. I think it’s it’s time for a very pathy recap on what the chambers is
7:25
all about just for the uninitiated. A listener might already be a member. They might know this already but I think we should remind them. Excellent. Well the chambers of commerce
What the British Chambers of Commerce actually does
7:32
51 chambers all across the UK covering every region and nation. incredible organizations obviously represent the
7:38
voice of business close to their local authorities but also their FE colleges, their universities, uh their their
7:44
hospital trusts and our little bit our best kept secret
7:50
and counting British chambers all over the world. So British American, British French, British Malaysian, you have a
7:55
friend in every port and we as the British Chambers are the collective voice for those businesses. So, it’s our
8:03
job to make sure the UK is the best place to start, grow, and invest in a business. And we do that through talking
8:10
to our members. So, research, building policy ideas, talking to government, talking to the media, and making sure,
8:17
you know, we’re building the right frameworks for our businesses to thrive. Yeah. And back to the core mission,
Why business should be a force for good
8:23
connect them with each other, right, which is unbelievably central um to the mission. Um, something that you’ve
8:28
talked about a lot is this idea of business as a force for good. And I
8:34
really want to get a sense beyond creating jobs, solving problems in their communities, what you think that phrase
8:40
means and what it can mean. So, the very first Chamber of Commerce
8:46
in the world, where do you think it was? Well, I’m hoping I’m hoping it was in Britain.
8:52
It was not. It was not. It was not. It’s not. So, think of global trade.
8:57
It was Marseilles, the port, obviously massive Mediterranean port. What year?
9:03
What year did the merchants of Marseilles come together around a common problem?
9:08
Gosh, 1600. Wow. 1599.
9:13
I think you’re the first person to get that close to the right answer. They call Call it a lucky guess.
9:18
Amazing. So, they had a problem. The merchants of Marseilles had a problem. They came together. What was their
The remarkable origins of the Chamber of Commerce
9:24
problem? Um, was it that ships kept sinking?
9:30
Not bad. Ships were coming into port, all their goods empty because they’d
9:35
been pirated on their way in. So, the merchants got together, they clubbed together, and what did they buy?
9:41
I’m not going to fall [laughter] into an elephant trap by guessing wrong here. Tell us what they What they bought was their own private
9:46
army, which I assume was a bunch of ex- pirates, but anyway, they guided the ships coming into port and the goods
9:52
arrived on time. I tell that story because to your point, the original idea
9:57
of the Chamber of Commerce is coming together because together we’re stronger. Yes. And that idea, core,
10:04
simple, brilliant idea remains the same today. Well, and the same seeds as Lloyds of London and lots of other amazing uh
10:11
globally significant organizations. Let’s go back to that point of force for good because if you think about all the
10:16
social challenges facing us, give us a sense of where your mind is currently at
10:22
in terms of businesses being able to step up to those challenges. So I’m a massive believer in businesses
Business, purpose and social impact
10:28
and force for good. Um my father when I was growing up worked for Lever Brothers
10:34
in Port Sunlight. I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, but Lord Lever Hume built it as a first sort of purpose-made
10:40
town for his workers because he believed that happier workers meant better
10:45
business. He was right, of course, and he gave them soap and kept everyone clean and germfree and healthy and so
10:51
on. and you know those original Victorian philanthropists, but actually
10:56
that idea of profit enabling people and planet is I think absolutely
11:03
core to what business should be about and you know I started my journey in
11:09
social impact investing in the sort of early 2000s small businesses of force for good and I took the role in
11:15
government because that was big business and government working together for social policy and the chambers of
11:20
commerce are the embodiment of that. It is business leaders volunteering their
11:27
time together to run the chambers, bring bring businesses together, you know,
11:32
help growing businesses, not make them the same mistakes they did, you know, learn,
11:38
mentor, support. Um and and in terms of fixing sort of social problems, the the
11:45
profit motive that enables businesses to be sustainable and therefore give back to their communities, be it helping
11:52
young people into the workforce or looking after the elderly or ensuring their environments are, you know,
11:58
beautiful and careful and well looked after. I mean, you see it every I see it everywhere I go.
12:03
Right. So, um it’s slightly unfair. It’s probably like picking your favorite child or something. But take us to one
12:09
or two examples of that because if you think the example you’ve already given with uh with the lever example, you
12:14
think of pioneers like Roundtree, like Josiah Wedgwood. Where do we go today to
12:20
find examples of those businesses who are investing in their communities, investing in their people, um being a
12:27
net force for good in their communities. Yeah. I mean, I can’t tell you the number of businesses who say, uh, you
12:33
know, obviously lay out the challenges to me, but then say, but come on, let me show you my new bit of kit or let me
12:39
show you my, uh, new new office I’m opening, or come and meet my incredible apprentices. So, seeing the young people
12:46
that they’re bringing in at 16, often 16, who know nothing and the amount of
12:52
time that they give to nurturing, you know, the next generation. Often those
12:57
business leaders have been apprentices themselves which I which I which I I find. There’s a massive very famous tire
13:05
factory up in Cumbria that that provide the tires for SUVs
13:10
across the whole of Europe. The guy runs that plant was an apprentice himself and
13:15
he brings hundreds in every every year. So that’s certainly a thing. And
13:21
actually most of those business leaders that that we meet, they don’t really talk about a lot of the stuff they do in
13:27
their communities, you know, the youth clubs they support, the the the volunteering they allow their staff to
13:33
to to have time off to do, you know, a lot of them are deputy left tenants. They give back to their areas in terms
13:39
of supporting um the king’s award for for growth. I was I I have been to some
13:44
amazing places. I was sitting in the offic’s mess at the naval yard in Plymouth. beautiful double-heed oak
13:51
panled room, the commodore on one side and the president of the chamber on the other. And the president of the chamber
13:58
said to me, “Well, joining your chamber is a bit like a cure for loneliness, isn’t it?” And I
14:04
was like, “Oh, I’m not really sure what you mean by that.” Goes, “Well, starting a business is hard. It’s hard and it’s
14:10
lonely and you join the chamber and there’s always someone to talk to. There’s always someone to ring. There’s
14:17
always someone to help you. and you don’t make the mistakes that they made. I thought that was really nice. I love that. And also, it’s that power
Is Britain still a great place to do business?
14:23
of community, being able to meet people on multiple occasions as well to become your confidants on that journey. Let’s
14:30
um let’s think a bit more about the UK. I’m fascinated by that debate you referenced at Elely Cathedral. Uh that
14:37
may or may not have been or was uh more more on a knife edge than some of us would have hoped.
14:42
Yes. Whether you a great place to do business. When you think of Britain today, what gives you confidence?
14:50
So, having the joy of traveling the country and meeting the business leaders of the UK, I am always blown away by
14:57
their can do, solutionorientated, entrepreneurial spirit and that that
15:04
inspires me every time. They do lay out the challenges, but as I
15:10
say, they’re always talking about what’s next. Having said that, it feels and that’s
15:17
what came out in this debate. It feels now that the pressures just keep coming. So,
15:25
you know, gosh, since I’ve been in this job five years almost, well, this month
15:31
and you know, it was May 21. We had a bit of Boris’s sunny up plans. We
15:37
didn’t. We had a bit more COVID to go. Then we had the Ukrainian war. We had huge energy price spikes. We had three
15:44
prime ministers in a year. We had a general election. And we had an increase in national insurance. Huge global trade
15:52
tariff challenges. And now the Iranian conflict and all of that is adding cost and
15:58
complexity and it feels a little bit like it’s really a I know it’s a
16:03
struggle. It’s like they say it’s like working in trial. It’s it’s never it’s never been harder and it’s been it’s
16:10
been 10 years 2016 Brexit 2026. So to what extent do you think for those
16:17
individual organizations they ought to crack on because you can be their voice.
16:23
You can effectively lobby if that’s the appropriate word on their behalf. Or to what extent are you saying no no no you
16:29
need to raise your voice. You need to engage in conversation. We have to have you around these tables if we’re going
Why businesses are optimistic despite the economy
16:36
to change things. Yeah. Yeah. What is interesting actually is when you ask our business community
16:42
how they feel about the economy overall, it’s generally a little bit, you know,
16:48
down. If you ask them how they feel about their own business, they feel super positive.
16:54
So that’s a sort of cognitive dissonance, isn’t it? Another good reason to connect them with each other, by the Well, and it is our
17:00
job as the as the BCC to to to be that voice and that and that balance and they
17:07
are always willing to join me. I mean, we do a I do a lot of media. We we we
17:12
send our cameras around the country. They do a lot of local media. Um so they’re in general always there uh uh
17:20
with you know their voices. And if you think about you know about the UK economy, our members are the full
17:26
spread. So the largest corporates 80%memes startup scaleups and a lot of these are
17:33
family businesses who’ve been around uh where was I the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce and somebody said oh our
17:40
company’s been a member of the chamber for 140 years. Yeah. How about that? Almost as long as you’ve been in he said
17:46
what you say where were you for the first 20? Exactly. That that is astonishing and you’re right to point to that range as
17:52
well because of course 99% of companies are not large and you have got that full variety. Yeah. Um within the membership
17:59
is there an example back to the cynic who might be watching who says you know it doesn’t make any difference. You can
18:04
say what you like to these politicians. They won’t make they won’t pay any attention. They won’t change their path.
18:10
Give us a point of light that says actually not always the case. Yeah that absolutely is not is not the
Can business really influence government?
18:15
case. They they most politicians fully recognize that we need economic growth,
18:22
you know, more jobs, more taxes to pay for our teachers, nurses. Um, we did a
18:28
lot of policy work before the general election. We had a hund and remember we’re apolitical, so we work with, you
18:34
know, parties of all colors. Um, we had 149 policy recommendations. The Labour
18:41
Party put 82 of those in their manifesto. In the manifesto. in the manifesto. So we’re, you know, we’re working those
18:46
through. So if you think about planning reform, um, uh, infrastructure sign off,
18:52
you know, trade, positive trade, FTAs, EU, UK reset, all of that are things
18:58
that we ask for. So let’s step back then um, back to that 150 year plus history. How does the
19:06
future of the chambers look different? And nothing wrong with um keeping good
19:11
things, but how does the future of the Chambers look different to how it has looked over that course of its life?
19:17
So, the Chambers really came about in the UK around the industrial revolution and helping businesses
The AI revolution and the future of the Chambers
19:24
work out what that meant for them and where we were going next and that the regulation that was being built like in
19:31
real time uh was right for changing and emerging businesses.
19:37
And here we are again. The advent of AI means we will be reinventing ourselves all over again. And that is why the
19:45
chambers are equally as important again this this digital revolution round. So
19:51
we need to be again at the forefront of that change helping businesses a adapt
19:57
but government understand what businesses need to thrive in this now
20:02
you know huge again juggernaut that has arrived in our workplaces probably the
20:08
defining issue of our age I was saying to someone yesterday well I mean we’ve
20:14
both lived through like the last digital revolution and this one and then I I looked at them and I thought okay actually you didn’t through the last
20:21
one, did you? But I mean, you and I did, didn’t we, the first time round? I mean, I was I was running a startup. We built
20:28
Smirnoff’s ever face first ever Facebook page. Oh, said the client. What is this
20:35
Facebook you talk of? Yeah, we said you should get on it. We think it’s going to be big. Okay. So, what we’ve identified there is
20:42
your ability to help businesses adapt. So especially around technology just
20:47
give us a practical example of what that actually looks like. So with AI this is interesting again is
How AI is changing UK businesses today
20:52
it because we are doing research to understand from our members how they’re
20:57
adopting AI and we’re seeing huge adoption from 25% last year to 50% this
21:02
year but the adoption is a bit more it’s a bit shallow. So it’s more like it’s
21:07
helping me write my emails than it is re-engineering my business processes.
21:13
So what we realized was that government policies sort of behind as often the
21:19
case you know new uh like the digital revolution. So what we need to do is help our
21:25
business leaders understand what even the art of the possible is because actually if I said to you you need a new
21:31
website or a new CRM like you sort of get what benefit that brings you. If I say to you you should use AI what does
21:38
that even mean? So what we’ve done is we’ve launched a training program, the AI Academy, 12 hours online,
21:46
self-accessed, but what it does is it totally understands what your job description is and adapts all the
21:52
training to you. Excellent. I did think it would struggle with the director general, the British Chamber of Commerce, but actually it quite blew my
22:00
mind. And what we’re seeing the data coming out the back of that is people are saying even now they’re saving 3 to five
22:07
hours a week. And if you ladder that up to the productivity gains for the UK,
22:13
that’s huge. Yeah. So, how are we helping our members grasp this opportunity, especially as a
22:20
smaller business? AI could be the great leveler, right? You have access to tools that well used previously only big
22:27
business could use. Yeah. And back to that power of sharing examples across a network to inspire
22:33
each other to say, you know, I feel too many of us are effectively playing chopsticks on a Steinway and the
22:39
[laughter] sooner we can do more. That’s so true. Blending my metaphors here, more open mic nights where we say, “Have a look at
22:45
this.” And we just enjoy learning from each other and we know there’s appetite because I mean, I was just chatting to the guy who
22:51
runs our Kent Chamber. He’s got 300 people coming to our event next week. There we go. Deal or no deal. There you
Politics, leadership and making change
22:57
go. Come on. Um, so here’s a question. I do find myself asking this to quite a few tomorrow guests. I don’t know what
23:03
that says about our choice of guests. Frontline politics, Siobhan. Yes.
23:08
You’ve been in the heart of number 10. You’re leading an August institution.
23:14
You could be even more of a change maker if you left your lane and went into that
23:19
frontline politics. You’re not the first person to say, “Do you want to stand uh for election?” And
23:27
the answer is definitely no. Uh that one’s not for me. Uh but I do hope that
23:34
I can make change in this role. I think it’s uh I feel like I can probably make
23:40
more change. It’s politics adjacent, but I love the business world and the
23:46
private sector. And so this is my place. Right. And the simple fact is you are in politics, right? You are in the business
23:51
of of um making change. well of of making ensuring the right policies in
23:57
place. So, yes, I’ve got some uh quickfire questions. Pick a number between one and 10. Which
24:02
one? Eight. [laughter] One thing. What’s one thing that Britain should do more of?
24:09
Britain should do more of investing in itself.
Why Britain must invest in itself
24:16
So uh 40 years ago about 50% of UK pensions
24:22
uh pension funds were invested in UK businesses. Now it’s 5%. What happened?
24:28
We have incredible businesses, fast growing. We we’re innovate. We’re innovators. We’re inventies and actually
24:36
that’s what we’re really good at. But investing in ourselves after that we’re not. And and look at we’re sitting in
24:42
the city of London aren’t we Bondi? We’re in Soho but we’re city of London. right on our doorstep. Right. This will be music to the ears of
24:48
our tomorrow guest named Julia Hoget then exchange. Yeah. Um 100%. I’m
24:55
tempted to ask you for one more thing that Brin should do more of. You already given a great first answer, but let’s
25:00
get you on that theme. Another thing. Okay. Well, I’ve got a great other thing. Um
Why exporting is the fastest way to grow
25:06
the fastest way to grow our economy and the fastest way to grow your business is to export. Is to take what you make and
25:13
take it to another country. And what business leaders tell us is,
25:19
“Oh, that looks quite hard, and I don’t know anyone in that market, and what if I get the wrong documentation? My people
25:25
or my my goods get stuck at the border.” We can fix all of that for you.
25:31
Get out there, try it. I was chatting to the team at DHL and they said, “It’s
25:37
fascinating when you look at countries all around the world. Germany for example, you start a business globally
25:42
and then you think about Germany. Here we start by thinking about the UK and maybe get round to thinking about
25:48
somewhere else. Having traveled with hundreds of British companies overseas and seen the joy that
25:54
connecting with their peers overseas brings is often seen as you know you know this could be very good
26:00
financially. Actually so much more than that. and businesses that trade, last
26:06
longer, grow faster, pay better. And the other thing I find when I travel
26:12
the world is people love working with the British. They really do love when
26:17
the UK turns up. You’ll be welcomed with open arms. Huge affection. I totally agree. Right. Pick another number between one and 10.
Companies and leaders Shevaun admires
26:24
Two. Oh, you see, I I wonder if you’ll go [laughter] straight for this. A company you admire.
26:30
Oh gosh. That is like asking me to pick a favorite chart.
26:36
A listener might notice you avoided the question before. Um so one of the one one of the businesses I have really uh admired
26:44
previously is Unilver. I know we touched on it earlier, but Paul Pullman, you remember, used to run Unilver and he
26:52
brought the idea of businesses involved for good, profit with purpose into the
26:57
mainstream and he used brands like Dove, if you remember, the campaigns around body
27:03
positivity, real beauty. Absolutely. Thank you. Real Beauty. Um, it to the mainstream and showed that it wasn’t
27:11
business with purpose wasn’t just something for small businesses. It was for for the mainstream. And I I would I
27:16
really admired that. That was brave. Yeah, he was a brave leader. Yeah, totally. Totally. And here’s to
27:21
that. Uh one final number uh five. Oh, a technology that you’re excited
27:28
about. We’ve touched on tech a bit, but a particular uh technology that you’re excited about.
27:34
So, I am quite proud of what we as an
AI tools every business should be exploring
27:40
organization. So, the BCC there was there’s 50 of us. Um, I’m really proud
27:45
of my team and how they’ve really started to experiment and innovate and
27:51
try and use different forms of AI in the business. And you know, you always need a champion, don’t you? My FD, she’s the
27:59
total champion for this. And she’s we’ve all put ourselves through the training. We’re moving on to new things. We’ve
28:05
tried chat and claude and we’re using Microsoft Copilot. And
28:10
I think trying different things and not being afraid to innovate because we’re
28:18
private businesses, we can do that. It’s obviously not quite the same when you’re running the government. Um,
28:24
but I would say to people, experiment, try different things and see what works for your business because I we’re still
28:31
in a bit of a Betamax VHS world, are we? What do you think? think [snorts]
28:36
um well I think it’s that sheer variety again but back to um you’ve given one
28:41
aspect of it which is saving time um I think there’s another one which is just unlocking things that we would
28:46
never have otherwise have discovered for example I’ll often prompt AI to spot
28:52
potential connections I wouldn’t otherwise thought about who should I talk to about this within my existing network within a guest list of
28:59
an event within a membership for example what would be the most powerful impactbased pairings of members of a
29:05
particular chamber and why nice so you give it a guest list of somewhere you’re going and say who should I talk to
29:10
yes I do and I will say which 10 pairs of people should meet to maximize commercial success to maximize social
AI, customer service and human connection
29:17
impact and why and even if it’s not I mean who could say what the correct answer is but it certainly gets you
29:22
thinking yeah yeah I was um chatting with Greg Jackson who runs Octopus yeah yesterday
29:29
and he was talking about how they’ve been experimenting with AI in their um customer service and responding to to to
29:35
customers and somebody said to him, “Well, I mean, it only goes so far,
29:40
doesn’t it?” Because it doesn’t have any empathy. And he showed that person an email that
29:45
had written because nothing goes out without a human reading it, of course. But uh somebody had uh got in touch with
29:53
the contact center to say they’d been ill in hospital and therefore were behind on their payments. and the AI had
29:59
written an email that started, I’m so sorry to hear that you’ve been unwell. Your health is the most important thing.
30:06
Let’s make sure we sort this out for you. And again, it’s these examples, we take
30:12
your point that that then has to be signed off before it gets sent that help people to look again to think again because I think one of the biggest
30:18
challenges um is that people make their minds up too soon about these emerging technologies and they don’t revisit it
30:25
and see where it’s actually got to. Yeah. Yes, because it is changing and improve the word improving and actually
30:32
is it therefore converging a bit more into a center ground where it is
30:37
generally positive and actually if you can get it to do
30:43
those tasks we can go back to being sort of profoundly human and building that
30:48
connection with other people instead of looking at our screens. Well, exactly. And I think the
Will AI replace graduate jobs?
30:54
challenging flip side that seems to be playing out and let’s see if this resonates is that whilst
31:01
a set of announcements and policies are put with good intent to look after
31:08
workers employees the flip side is that the employer themselves says well if
31:13
that’s how much if that’s how high the bar now is I’m simply not going to take them on in the first place.
31:20
it has become too difficult, too costly to take on perhaps that young person.
31:26
So, we just won’t bother and insteps AI. So, we’re not seeing that yet. Um, we
31:33
are seeing people use AI to augment their roles. We’re seeing people hire
31:39
young people because they are great communicators and they’ve got an open growth mindset and they want to learn
31:47
and pairing them with AI. And we’re seeing young people who are much better at it than possibly
31:54
the rest of an organization. When you say you’re not seeing it, presumably you are seeing and we have
31:59
seen, haven’t we, a huge decline in graduate roles. Yeah. in the past three years since the release for example
32:06
coincidence or not uh of um some of these um large LLMs you know that those
32:11
graduate roles have declined massively in the UK the work structure of
The changing skills employers value
32:17
workplaces is sort of changing in front of our eyes so you know it is uh there
32:24
is a we’re going through a stage of fundamental change and and I and we
32:31
can’t draw any conclusions yet. Um,
32:36
one of the big four was telling me that they are now recruiting actually more
32:41
based on communication than on your data skills. Now, actually gone back to
32:48
humanities graduates. Yay, we’re back in. Um, so I think it’s I think it’s all still very much a moving feast. Uh what
32:58
we do know of course because we’ve seen the Melbourne review is that there are now over a million young people who are
33:05
not in education or training or work and are further away from the workplace than
33:11
has ever been the case. And as business leaders, they our businesses really want
33:17
to hire young people from their local community. It’s just hard.
33:23
And if you think about Ollie, like
33:28
when you leave school, what are the two things you do in life?
33:34
You work and you have, you know, relationships, family, friends, whatever. Do you learn anything about
33:41
those two things while you’re at school? No. It’s a very good question. You do not. And so actually how we you
33:49
know and this is not the fault of anyone. Schools are measured on offstead measures of exam results.
33:55
And so what we find is as much as our business people want to go into schools and and talk to young people about the
The future of British business
34:01
world of work. Schools are just not structured or able or measured on anything. Not a single offset measure on
34:08
work readiness. So it’s not surprising that young people are turning up to work not ready for it.
34:14
Yeah. And that’s just another cost to business people. Yeah. And if I had to draw out a consistent theme in our tomorrow
34:20
conversations is this. You are doing an unusually strong job at bringing those employers and those educators closer
34:27
together. Um I want to talk a bit about uh some of the different hats that you continue to wear but that you’ve also worn. Um you
34:34
worked at the great uh Walt Disney Company. Um what do you think as full
34:40
disclosure as have I uh many years ago? What did you take from that experience that you continue to use?
34:47
Um, I you will have seen this. Disney had this relentless
34:54
focus on the customer, didn’t they? On on on the guest, as they were called,
35:00
and delighting the guest. We were all in
35:05
whoever we were, we were all empowered to uh do guest recovery. Do you remember that? Service recovery. Absolutely. So if
35:11
anything went wrong, any of us could uh fix something for that guest. And
35:16
actually that has really stayed with me. If you think about what makes any great business, it’s a relentless focus on
35:23
your customer. So it’s fascinating that wasn’t it? It was guest service recovery. It was being empowered to fix it. Whether it’s
35:28
dropped popcorn, put it back, etc. But also that idea of exceeding expectation.
35:33
This could be a rabbit hole here, a Mickeyshaped rabbit hole. Exceeding expectation, but not by miles. In other
35:39
words, this family might be coming for 20, 30 years. So, if we went completely
35:45
um over the top by giving them, you know, 10 ice creams when they dropped one, we actually
35:52
overly set expectation for their next visit. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I also did take away the whole magic ethos. I loved
36:00
that. And I love the fact that humongous workforce of course and most people had
36:05
definitely drunk the magic Kool-Aid. I love that. that was still in the mix. I I I I confess I agree. Um
36:13
Barefoot College, you have been I think you remain a trustee. I am. Just remind us about
36:18
that, but also totally different sector. Yeah, I mean really an amazing um
36:24
program. Such a simple idea driving such incredible change. So the idea is that B
36:30
barefoot has uh campuses all over the world and they take women from rural
36:36
settings. They teach them to be solar engineers and they bring solar panels
36:41
back to their villages and they electrify their houses, their villages.
36:47
That means they are no longer burning kerosene which is carinogenic uh for
36:52
them and their children. their children can see after dark to read, to learn, to educate themselves. But what is the most
36:59
fascinating part part is that most of these places uh Africa, Latin America,
37:06
India, they come from villages where women are not considered very important or useful. And so when these women come
37:13
back as solar engineers, solar mummers, suddenly the place of women in those
37:20
communities has changed and they’re now brought in by men to be part of the
37:25
decision- making of that community. Yeah, that’s systemic change. Yeah, love that example. Thank you. And
37:32
uh kudos to you for the support that you’re giving to Barefoot College. We’ll link to that um as well. Um, we do come
37:39
back to that theme of leaving your lane at future forum quite often. Whether that’s learning from different worlds,
37:46
trying new things. What does that phrase leave your lane mean to you, Siobhan? I don’t think I have a lane or ever had
37:52
one. I I did I don’t definitely know Lane. I mean it it is it does turn out
38:00
that understanding big business, running your own startup, spending some time in
38:06
government is very useful for this role at the Chamber of Commerce because you can genuinely say I see it from all
38:13
angles. Um so uh maybe it was fate that
38:18
all that uh zigzag eclectiveness came together, you know, at the end here. Um,
38:25
so I think that’s uh that’s I I do you know when you meet people who’ve been in
38:30
a sector or a business for 20 30 years and you think wow look at that expertise maybe maybe I should have stuck with one
38:37
thing you know and then I think no I know myself better than that I think maybe I was a magpie in another life you
38:42
know something new and shiny over here give us a glimpse of something in your future any clues
38:48
it’s all about working in partnership things get done when you bring all the right people together around the right
38:54
idea and get on with delivering it. And I think that’s where business,
39:00
government, third sector, we can really work together to fix the UK’s problems,
39:05
right? And I think it is that final thought on doing things together. It isn’t just talking about them. It isn’t
39:10
just connecting them for the sake of it. Um, it’s fascinating because I was taken
39:15
by that phrase you used earlier, rose tinted spectacles. You have a rosetinted brain. um when you get into conversation about
39:22
what’s happening and about the future of British businesses, you are quick understandably and rightly to talk about
39:29
challenges. So in the biggest possible sense, how do you currently think about the future?
39:36
Oh, in the biggest possible sense. Um look, I am absolutely optimistic about
39:42
the future as are business leaders because you wouldn’t run a business if you weren’t an optimist. And one thing I
39:47
have learned is I used to think that people I used to think that my optimism made people think I was naive or maybe
39:55
even shallow. But actually what I realize now is that optimism is a hugely
40:01
undervalued leadership quality. You don’t bring people with you by laying out a load of problems. You let you
40:07
bring people with you by laying out a vision and working towards that. And I think that is you know the UK is a
40:14
fantastic place to do business. is we have incredible fundamentals. We I know we have amazing business leaders. We
40:20
need to fix some issues and then we can you know geopolitics aside we can get on
40:26
with doing what we do best. And I have to say I think that is surprise surprise a very powerful argument for the
40:33
chambers themselves because you go back to Marseilles it is about the power of solving stuff together of doing things
40:40
together but also let’s be honest on a human level the power of camaraderie about sharing stuff that isn’t working
40:45
out uh it could be ranting together being sounding boards for each other sharing tip bits about what is actually
40:51
working um not just in our neighborhoods but across the whole country. Yeah. Yeah. And we know that that
40:58
peer-to-peer learning is the best way because people get people say, “Oh, um,
41:03
oh, Ollie, you don’t you don’t export.” Oh, honestly, I thought it was going to be difficult, but I tried it. You should
41:10
do it. And you you oh, Siobhan can do it. I can do it. You that really works. So I strongly suspect and you’ve already
41:16
hinted at this Siobhan that in the Chamers’s future we’ll see more in upskilling particularly around AI more
41:22
on exports and we don’t expect you to be giving any breaks to whoever might be leading in
41:29
power in terms of letting them off lightly when it comes to holding their feet to the fire.
41:35
We have to remember that in the near future there will be uh you know if you think about where the money is going the
41:41
money is going into infrastructure in the UK at the moment which is good size well lower in terms crossing expansion
41:48
of our airports new energy SMRs etc etc
41:53
and it will be shortly going into defense so we do have a moment here too
41:59
Ollie where we have to make sure that the UK’smemes reap the benefits of that spend A lot of it is private but a lot
Final reflections
42:06
of it is public money. So we are working handin glove with government to say how do we make sure that our UK businesses
42:14
are part of those supply chains. We run the supply chain for size well in Stoolk. We know they’ve already put 1.4
42:20
billion back into local businesses and I’ve been there and I’ve met those businesses and you know five years ago
42:28
they had 20 people and now they’ve got 120. and that done well around the country game changer.
42:34
Yeah. And not the narrative that always plays out. So it’s important to draw out uh those examples. Uh thank you Siobhan.
42:40
My uh final question or our final question on tomorrow is always to imagine you were sending a memo to the
42:46
future uh maybe 10 years time could be to your future self uh or a future
42:51
business leader. Uh what would you say? What change did you make for UK PLC?
43:00
Did you stand up and tell it how it was, how it is? Did you
43:07
make a difference? Did you drive change? Did you help grow the economy? That is a really powerful memo to the
43:14
future. And I love the fact that I’m inspired by the fact that you’re asking yourself that question in the future
43:21
because you’re clearly answering it today and uh we’re super grateful that you are. Siobhan Havlin, thank you for
43:27
joining us on tomorrow. Thank you.
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