00:00 People forget that India is such a
00:04
00:04 strong growing economy. The US people
00:07
00:07 are still writing checks.
00:09
00:09 You go to India and people are paying by
00:11
00:11 mobile payments via QR code. We really
00:14
00:14 should be paying more attention to this
00:17
00:17 economy that’s going to be the third
00:19
00:19 largest economy by 2030.
00:20
00:20 >> Why do you think we aren’t talking about
00:22
00:22 it as much as we should?
00:25
00:25 Hello and welcome to tomorrow, the
00:27
00:27 future forum podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett
00:31
00:31 and here at the future forum we’re all
00:33
00:33 about bringing people together from very
00:34
00:34 different sectors to shape the future
00:37
00:37 together.
00:38
00:38 Our guest today is somebody who has
00:40
00:40 spent their whole career at the
00:42
00:42 intersection of countries, capital and
00:46
00:46 ideas. They’ve worked as a very senior
00:48
00:48 diplomat around the world including in
00:51
00:51 India and in the United States most
00:54
00:54 notably as Consul General in San
00:57
00:57 Francisco, right in the heart of Silicon
00:59
00:59 Valley.
01:00
01:00 In recent years they have turned their
01:02
01:02 attention to innovation and investment.
01:06
01:06 They sit on the board of UKRI, UK
01:09
01:09 Research and Innovation and they’re a
01:11
01:11 director of the Digital Catapult. So
01:15
01:15 somebody that has combined policy
01:17
01:17 making, diplomacy, investment and
01:19
01:19 innovation. It is great pleasure to say
01:22
01:22 Priya Guha, welcome to tomorrow. Thank
01:25
01:25 you so much Ollie, lovely to be here.
01:27
01:27 Priya, there’s so much I want to cover
01:28
01:28 with you today. It’s going to be a bit
01:29
01:29 of a steeplechase. I want to start with
01:32
01:32 a glimpse of the future. As you look out
01:35
01:35 across the world, what do you hope to
01:37
01:37 see?
01:38
01:38 So I am an eternal optimist, Ollie. I’m
01:43
01:43 really positive about what the future
01:45
01:45 can hold and I think that seems like an
01:47
01:47 odd thing to say sometimes in this world
01:48
01:48 because people get very
01:50
01:50 worried about the disruption that’s
01:53
01:53 associated with technology, about the
01:55
01:55 geopolitical crises we face, around the
01:58
01:58 resource constraints that we face in the
01:59
01:59 world.
02:00
02:00 But I’m optimistic because I believe
02:02
02:02 that technology will be the solution to
02:05
02:05 the problems that we face.
02:06
02:06 I’m also really optimistic because I
02:09
02:09 think that we have a unique opportunity
02:11
02:11 to do something different here in the
02:12
02:12 UK. I think we have a great tradition of
02:16
02:16 technology and innovation and
02:18
02:18 forward-leaning ideas. But the other
02:21
02:21 thing we have is a really strong sense
02:24
02:24 of values and how we will build that
02:26
02:26 technology. And that makes me just
02:28
02:28 really excited about to see what the
02:30
02:30 future will bring. Excellent. That is a
02:31
02:31 perfect scene setter for what I’d like
02:34
02:34 to talk about. Um, I do want to step
02:36
02:36 back though because very often when
02:38
02:38 we’re talking about exciting places and
02:40
02:40 we’re going to come to the United
02:41
02:41 Kingdom around the world, we hear so
02:43
02:43 much about the United States, about
02:45
02:45 China. Um, it strikes me occasionally we
02:49
02:49 don’t hear as much about India and I
02:51
02:51 wonder if you agree with that and if so,
02:53
02:53 why you think that is? It is really
02:55
02:55 striking that you’ve identified that,
02:58
02:58 Ollie, because it is something I see day
02:60
02:60 in day out. I’ll be in a really
03:02
03:02 important conversation, whether it’s
03:04
03:04 with government colleagues, whether it’s
03:06
03:06 with business colleagues, and there’ll
03:08
03:08 be, you know, a hugely deep conversation
03:10
03:10 around what’s happening in the states.
03:12
03:12 There’ll be then a hugely deep
03:14
03:14 conversation about what’s happening in
03:15
03:15 China. But people forget that India is
03:20
03:20 such a strong, growing economy with a
03:24
03:24 population of now over 1.4 billion
03:26
03:26 people, 850 million of which are
03:30
03:30 accessed uh accessed to the internet and
03:32
03:32 are able to engage in the modern world
03:35
03:35 economy. And we really should be paying
03:39
03:39 more attention to this economy that’s
03:42
03:42 going to be the third largest economy by
03:43
03:43 2030.
03:44
03:44 >> Right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely on on on
03:46
03:46 the rise in that sense, too.
03:48
03:48 Uh, let’s look at that from two
03:49
03:49 different angles. Why do you think we
03:51
03:51 aren’t talking about it as much as we
03:52
03:52 should?
03:54
03:54 Um I think we’re really
03:56
03:56 set in certain ways of thinking,
03:60
03:60 particularly here in the UK,
04:02
04:02 which is that we have a historical sense
04:04
04:04 of where the geopolitical dynamics are
04:08
04:08 balanced. And when we start to think
04:10
04:10 about the conversations around who will
04:12
04:12 influence the future, we tend to revert
04:14
04:14 to what is the norm
04:16
04:16 and not be challenging ourselves enough
04:20
04:20 about the new players that are coming
04:21
04:21 through. So, I definitely think that is
04:23
04:23 a big problem.
04:25
04:25 You have traveled and we have traveled
04:27
04:27 together to India on many occasions.
04:31
04:31 What do you think tends to strike people
04:33
04:33 when you’re walking alongside them
04:35
04:35 visiting a country, let’s say
04:36
04:36 [clears throat] specifically India in
04:37
04:37 this case? What surprises them?
04:40
04:40 There’s a great example that I can use
04:42
04:42 that will bring this to life. There are
04:44
04:44 so many things that surprise people, but
04:46
04:46 I think one of the things that you will
04:48
04:48 see throughout India now
04:50
04:50 is when you go to pay for something,
04:52
04:52 whether that’s I don’t know, a newspaper
04:54
04:54 or a glass of juice or some fruit or
04:58
04:58 food in a stall, you will be offered a
05:00
05:00 QR code through which to pay.
05:03
05:03 And what that QR code is enabled through
05:06
05:06 is a nationwide digital payments
05:09
05:09 infrastructure
05:11
05:11 that allows every single vendor, large
05:14
05:14 or small, to be accepting direct mobile
05:17
05:17 payments from you. Yeah. In a way that
05:19
05:19 frankly has leapfrogged what we see in
05:22
05:22 so many other uh
05:23
05:23 countries.
05:24
05:24 >> leapfrogged it. And I think it’s really
05:27
05:27 incredible that, you know, we If you
05:30
05:30 look at the US, people are still writing
05:31
05:31 checks.
05:32
05:32 You go to India and people are paying by
05:34
05:34 mobile payments via QR code. Yeah. Yeah.
05:37
05:37 There is a state of play of where
05:38
05:38 disruption and adoption is happening
05:41
05:41 that we need to take notice of. Right.
05:43
05:43 So, let’s come back uh to this in due
05:45
05:45 course. Often when uh I’m speaking about
05:47
05:47 you, Priya, sometimes introducing you, I
05:50
05:50 talk about the what.
05:52
05:52 Investing in entrepreneurs, especially
05:53
05:53 female founders,
05:55
05:55 former Consul General,
05:57
05:57 former government diplomat. Um
05:60
05:60 that’s the what.
06:01
06:01 Today, I’d like to unpick a little bit
06:03
06:03 more about the why.
06:05
06:05 Why do you do what you do? Why have you
06:07
06:07 done the things you’ve done?
06:09
06:09 So, you will understand this when I
06:13
06:13 describe what I have observed about an
06:16
06:16 ecosystem like San Francisco.
06:18
06:18 In San Francisco, the tech ecosystem
06:21
06:21 doesn’t thrive just because of one
06:23
06:23 element.
06:24
06:24 It thrives because you have so many
06:26
06:26 different elements that come together.
06:29
06:29 You have an incredible sort of higher
06:31
06:31 education research base, places like
06:33
06:33 Stanford and Berkeley that are in those
06:35
06:35 few square miles of the San Francisco
06:37
06:37 Bay Area.
06:38
06:38 You then have a very, very dynamic
06:41
06:41 talent pool that’s coming from all over
06:44
06:44 the world to be taking forward both the
06:46
06:46 research but the companies that
06:48
06:48 commercialize from the research.
06:50
06:50 You’ve then got the capital, you’ve got
06:51
06:51 the venture capital.
06:53
06:53 You’ve got government that plays a role
06:55
06:55 in how
06:57
06:57 the companies can build their ideas,
06:59
06:59 investing in the ideas, and creating a
07:02
07:02 regulatory environment that allows them
07:03
07:03 to thrive.
07:05
07:05 Um and you also have large corporates
07:07
07:07 who are there to purchase the technology
07:09
07:09 but also collaborate with the smaller
07:12
07:12 startups that are coming through the
07:13
07:13 ecosystem. So, you have all of these
07:15
07:15 different dynamics that are coming
07:16
07:16 together to make it work.
07:19
07:19 After having done the job that I did in
07:20
07:20 San Francisco as UK Consul General,
07:23
07:23 running the UK government’s operations
07:24
07:24 there for 5 years, and then sort of
07:27
07:27 jumping over to the world of technology
07:29
07:29 and running the operations for a San
07:31
07:31 Francisco business in the UK,
07:33
07:33 it was really clear to me that actually
07:36
07:36 where I wanted to be was to have a seat
07:38
07:38 at the table for each of those different
07:39
07:39 hats for the ecosystem.
07:42
07:42 Because actually only when all of those
07:43
07:43 hats come together, do we make the tech
07:46
07:46 ecosystem really work?
07:47
07:47 And so I don’t misunderstand what you’re
07:49
07:49 saying. You said you wanted to have a
07:51
07:51 seat at the table. You wanted to
07:52
07:52 represent those different stakeholders
07:54
07:54 or and ensure that they were present
07:58
07:58 around that table.
07:60
07:60 Um that I wanted to have a depth of
08:03
08:03 understanding of the perspective of each
08:06
08:06 of those elements that make an ecosystem
08:09
08:09 work
08:10
08:10 in order to therefore provide a
08:13
08:13 different system-wide perspective of how
08:17
08:17 we make a tech ecosystem work
08:19
08:19 particularly here in the UK.
08:21
08:21 And we’re constantly aren’t we trying to
08:23
08:23 harvest clues for example from Silicon
08:26
08:26 Valley.
08:27
08:27 Uh in your example, what is something
08:29
08:29 that you would put at the top of the
08:31
08:31 list of techniques,
08:33
08:33 habits if you like, that we ought to be
08:35
08:35 cross-pollinating into our ecosystems
08:37
08:37 here?
08:39
08:39 Um I think there’s two things. Um one of
08:41
08:41 which is cultural, one of which will uh
08:44
08:44 be I suppose more I guess experiential.
08:47
08:47 Um on the experiential front, I think
08:50
08:50 the thing we really do need to have more
08:52
08:52 of in the UK is serial entrepreneur
08:54
08:54 talent.
08:55
08:55 Um and leveraging that talent to grow
08:58
08:58 the next generation of companies. Um
09:00
09:00 it’s something that I know you spend a
09:01
09:01 lot of your time thinking about Ollie
09:03
09:03 and it’s just so important that we
09:06
09:06 build on the knowledge base that we have
09:08
09:08 here and allow people to not make the
09:11
09:11 same mistakes that their predecessors
09:13
09:13 have made and to build on the real-life
09:16
09:16 experience that people who sort of been
09:18
09:18 there and done that can bring to the
09:19
09:19 table.
09:20
09:20 >> Right. So I’m about to fall into
09:22
09:22 the elephant trap I’ve described, aren’t
09:24
09:24 I, which is now let’s draw all the
09:25
09:25 lessons from Silicon Valley and not from
09:28
09:28 India. Completely different scenarios, I
09:30
09:30 know. So let’s go back a step. What
09:32
09:32 ought we to be
09:34
09:34 uh learning in terms of clues,
09:36
09:36 techniques, ways of doing things from
09:38
09:38 India. Um I think what you have in India
09:41
09:41 is from a technology ecosystem
09:44
09:44 perspective, an incredible market that
09:48
09:48 is ripe for adoption of the newest
09:51
09:51 technologies that are coming through.
09:53
09:53 So, when you meet Indian entrepreneurs,
09:56
09:56 they are entrepreneurs that have scaled
09:58
09:58 something to a market of
10:01
10:01 let’s say, you know, that 850 million
10:03
10:03 people who have access to the internet
10:05
10:05 there in India. That is a huge market
10:08
10:08 adoption journey.
10:09
10:09 And so, those um CEOs, those
10:11
10:11 entrepreneurs, are often incredibly well
10:14
10:14 placed to then look at the UK market, to
10:17
10:17 look at the European market, to look at
10:18
10:18 the US. So, I think there’s an a really
10:21
10:21 strong professional
10:24
10:24 business journey that entrepreneurs go
10:26
10:26 through there that make them the
10:27
10:27 scrappiest in the world. Would love to
10:28
10:28 see that as a mentoring program actually
10:31
10:31 between us. Um couple of other thoughts
10:34
10:34 on what you’d picked out about uh
10:36
10:36 Silicon Valley. Um
10:38
10:38 government you mentioned. There is an
10:40
10:40 argument that says it’s actually its
10:41
10:41 distance from central government that
10:44
10:44 has allowed some of the more maverick
10:47
10:47 innovations to thrive. So, what over
10:49
10:49 time have you noticed about how the
10:51
10:51 innovators
10:53
10:53 um how close innovators want and need to
10:55
10:55 be
10:56
10:56 to government?
10:57
10:57 So, that is a very current narrative,
11:00
11:00 i.e., that, you know, distance can
11:02
11:02 sometimes be a good thing. The reality
11:04
11:04 is, if you go back to the history of
11:06
11:06 Silicon Valley, some of the most
11:08
11:08 exciting inventions have come from
11:10
11:10 government-funded research bases.
11:13
11:13 Um either government-funded research
11:15
11:15 within organizations like DARPA or ARPA,
11:18
11:18 um or uh through government-funded
11:20
11:20 research in uh universities or private
11:22
11:22 sector university collaborations. So, it
11:25
11:25 is it is not, I think, accurate to say
11:27
11:27 that actually government has not played
11:30
11:30 that sort of fundamental role in seeding
11:32
11:32 innovation. Uh and government can also
11:34
11:34 be one of the first adopters of
11:36
11:36 innovation. I think this is something
11:37
11:37 that is a huge opportunity for
11:39
11:39 governments all over the world to be
11:42
11:42 front leaning in buying, in procuring
11:46
11:46 some of the most innovative new
11:48
11:48 technologies and ideas.
11:50
11:50 So I’m imagining here because you’re
11:52
11:52 painting us a picture of a table,
11:53
11:53 different stakeholders. You’ve witnessed
11:55
11:55 this around the world.
11:57
11:57 At some point there needs to be that
11:58
11:58 Bletchley Park effect of code breaking
12:01
12:01 because of the different languages
12:02
12:02 spoken. So if we’re all to thrive
12:05
12:05 together in the future, where do we need
12:07
12:07 a little bit of decoding? What have you
12:08
12:08 noticed?
12:10
12:10 I mean, I think we have to decode across
12:12
12:12 so many of the different worlds in which
12:14
12:14 we operate.
12:15
12:15 That’s partly why I chose to do the
12:18
12:18 career that I currently have, i.e. these
12:20
12:20 multiple hats across lots of different
12:22
12:22 sectors.
12:23
12:23 Because I like to think that I can play
12:25
12:25 some sort of minor role in helping to
12:27
12:27 translate. Right. Understood. So
12:30
12:30 let’s put a much more personal
12:32
12:32 flavor into this.
12:34
12:34 I’ve seen you as our host as Consul
12:37
12:37 General in San Francisco overseeing a
12:40
12:40 very
12:42
12:42 varied room, shall we say, of
12:44
12:44 innovators, investors, policy makers.
12:47
12:47 What has your experience taught you
12:50
12:50 about how you get very different
12:52
12:52 individuals [laughter]
12:53
12:53 from very different lanes, as we talk
12:55
12:55 about a lot at Future Forum,
12:58
12:58 to understand each other, but frankly
12:60
12:60 even more fundamentally to get on?
13:03
13:03 So
13:05
13:05 I’m a real believer in the power of
13:07
13:07 humanity and connection. And I know, you
13:09
13:09 know, you you share this view, too,
13:11
13:11 Ollie. That actually there are so many
13:13
13:13 levels at which people will connect.
13:16
13:16 So there may be a business connection,
13:19
13:19 but it may be a personal connection or
13:22
13:22 an ex-shared experience connection. And
13:24
13:24 all of those things can create that
13:27
13:27 spark that will forge a bond, whether
13:30
13:30 that’s a professional friendship or
13:32
13:32 something that will translate into a
13:33
13:33 personal friendship. But that is always
13:36
13:36 something that can happen because
13:38
13:38 fundamentally there’s a shared humanity
13:40
13:40 that is something that runs between all
13:42
13:42 of those people in a room like the one
13:43
13:43 you described.
13:45
13:45 So what happens then when we distill
13:47
13:47 that
13:49
13:49 to
13:50
13:50 countries and their relationships with
13:52
13:52 each other? This will be on the mind of
13:55
13:55 our listener
13:57
13:57 this year as in every year. And
14:02
14:02 I suppose what gets in the middle of
14:03
14:03 that is some form of diplomacy.
14:06
14:06 What does the future of diplomacy look
14:09
14:09 like and how do we foster a world in
14:11
14:11 which countries have healthier
14:13
14:13 relationships rather than the opposite?
14:16
14:16 Some people look at the future of
14:17
14:17 diplomacy and start to wonder whether
14:20
14:20 there is a role for diplomats in a world
14:22
14:22 where you can connect so easily
14:25
14:25 via technology, just by jumping on a
14:28
14:28 plane.
14:29
14:29 Actually, what does a diplomat bring?
14:31
14:31 I think what the diplomat can bring in
14:34
14:34 the modern age is actually a deep
14:37
14:37 understanding of the culture and norms
14:40
14:40 of a different country.
14:42
14:42 Because the reality is whilst there is a
14:44
14:44 shared humanity across all of us, there
14:47
14:47 are always nuances, there are always
14:49
14:49 differences and there are always
14:50
14:50 elements of history that will determine
14:52
14:52 how a country will operate.
14:54
14:54 And actually, that’s something that you
14:57
14:57 only can learn through spending time in
15:00
15:00 that country, through spending time
15:02
15:02 learning a language of that country,
15:04
15:04 through spending time talking to the
15:06
15:06 people of that country across all walks
15:08
15:08 of life. And what did you notice then
15:11
15:11 and you have many colleagues who have
15:13
15:13 worked in diplomatic roles around the
15:14
15:14 world because there is a flip side of
15:16
15:16 that where you realize that by
15:19
15:19 definition many of those colleagues have
15:21
15:21 been only recently parachuted into those
15:23
15:23 roles. They’re working alongside people
15:25
15:25 who have lived there all of their lives.
15:27
15:27 And yet, the diplomat is looked to as a
15:29
15:29 source of knowledge of cultural
15:31
15:31 translation on all these things. And
15:33
15:33 that must be tough, especially when
15:34
15:34 you’ve just arrived. Well, you know,
15:36
15:36 there’s always a learning curve in every
15:38
15:38 job. And obviously, as a diplomat, you
15:39
15:39 land in a new country, and the learning
15:41
15:41 curve is probably a little bit steeper
15:43
15:43 because it is new by nature. Although,
15:45
15:45 quite often people will be sent back in
15:47
15:47 different parts of their career to a
15:48
15:48 country they’ve served in historically.
15:51
15:51 But the diplomat is not just there to
15:53
15:53 understand the country, they’re there to
15:54
15:54 bridge.
15:55
15:55 They’re there to bring the understanding
15:57
15:57 of what, in this context, the UK’s
15:60
15:60 national priorities are. And to map that
16:02
16:02 against the priorities and needs of the
16:05
16:05 host country in which they’re operating.
16:06
16:06 So, it’s not just an understanding of
16:07
16:07 the domestic environment in the country
16:09
16:09 they are, it’s also that bridging
16:11
16:11 capability.
16:13
16:13 So, to what extent then, taking this
16:16
16:16 future of diplomacy point a step
16:17
16:17 forward, to what extent
16:19
16:19 are we now even thinking that
16:22
16:22 countries can only ever follow
16:25
16:25 or mirror, if you like, the
16:26
16:26 relationships that their governments
16:28
16:28 have with the governments of other
16:30
16:30 countries? To what extent is it possible
16:33
16:33 for the people, the innovators, the
16:34
16:34 entrepreneurs of countries to forge a
16:37
16:37 bond which is independent, which is
16:39
16:39 separate and um
16:41
16:41 removed from that?
16:43
16:43 I mean, I think the
16:44
16:44 government-to-government relationship
16:46
16:46 that exists between two countries will
16:49
16:49 be probably less than I don’t know, 0.5%
16:51
16:51 [snorts]
16:52
16:52 of the relationships that will exist
16:55
16:55 between two countries, particularly
16:56
16:56 those where there is a strong shared
16:58
16:58 history. So, there will be relationships
17:01
17:01 across business, there’ll be
17:02
17:02 relationships across the arts, there’ll
17:03
17:03 be relationships across the third
17:05
17:05 sector. Um because that’s how people
17:08
17:08 operate, and that’s how we’re
17:09
17:09 successful. And so, the
17:11
17:11 government-to-government element of that
17:13
17:13 is an umbrella, because it can sort sort
17:15
17:15 encapsulate the entirety of all of that,
17:19
17:19 but it’s in reality just a very, very
17:21
17:21 small fraction of what will happen
17:23
17:23 between two countries, and that’s a good
17:24
17:24 thing.
17:26
17:26 It’s
17:27
17:27 so good to hear you say that, because it
17:29
17:29 can you see what I’m
17:31
17:31 noting that it can seem like that
17:33
17:33 percentage is much higher.
17:35
17:35 I mean, it it may be in countries where
17:38
17:38 there is less history and less
17:41
17:41 connection,
17:43
17:43 but in the countries that we’ve talked
17:44
17:44 about so far in the conversation, so
17:46
17:46 countries like India, countries like the
17:47
17:47 US, there is such a strong history of
17:51
17:51 shared connection. Yeah. For good and
17:52
17:52 bad in in some contexts, that there is
17:55
17:55 so much more to it than the
17:56
17:56 government-to-government relationship.
17:58
17:58 In India, um there’s a phrase that
17:60
17:60 people often talk about for the UK-India
18:01
18:01 relationship, um which is the living
18:03
18:03 bridge, and I love that because it sort
18:05
18:05 of just encapsulates this idea that it’s
18:07
18:07 much more than a
18:08
18:08 government-to-government conversation.
18:09
18:09 Yeah, completely agree. Um let’s do uh
18:13
18:13 quick fire. I’ve got 10 much pithier
18:16
18:16 questions, but it does involve you
18:17
18:17 picking a number between 1 and 10.
18:20
18:20 Seven.
18:21
18:21 Seven.
18:22
18:22 Oh, so. Um
18:24
18:24 what’s a belief, and this is about
18:26
18:26 global growth,
18:27
18:27 um
18:28
18:28 what’s a belief about global growth or
18:30
18:30 markets that you think is now a bit
18:33
18:33 outdated? A
18:35
18:35 move towards inclusive
18:38
18:38 growth will happen naturally,
18:41
18:41 and that won’t happen through
18:42
18:42 intervention.
18:43
18:43 Hm.
18:44
18:44 So,
18:46
18:46 not quick fire, but
18:48
18:48 say what you mean by inclusive growth in
18:49
18:49 that sense. So, as you know, Ollie, I’ve
18:52
18:52 spent a lot of time across my whole
18:54
18:54 career looking at how we think about um
18:56
18:56 making sure that everybody has a seat at
18:58
18:58 the table in our economies, both because
19:01
19:01 of the economic growth that brings, but
19:03
19:03 also because of the better ideas and
19:05
19:05 societal solutions we’ll get um as a
19:07
19:07 result of that process.
19:09
19:09 Um
19:10
19:10 I think many of us had thought that that
19:12
19:12 was going to be a sort of natural
19:14
19:14 progression.
19:16
19:16 Um and I think what recent months and
19:18
19:18 years have shown is that it is not going
19:21
19:21 to happen naturally. And actually that
19:23
19:23 we are moving backwards
19:26
19:26 in making sure that everybody has a seat
19:28
19:28 at the table. And that’s something that
19:30
19:30 I think we need to do something about.
19:32
19:32 It’s really interesting because
19:34
19:34 I’m sure you don’t mean that the
19:36
19:36 opposite of naturally has to mean
19:39
19:39 government intervention. It just means
19:41
19:41 some form of deliberate action. Yeah, it
19:44
19:44 means deliberate action. But in this
19:47
19:47 case, I do think that government has
19:50
19:50 tools that it can use to incentivize.
19:53
19:53 Yeah, a great example in the UK context
19:55
19:55 is the change to encouraging increased
19:58
19:58 numbers of women on boards in listed
20:01
20:01 companies. Um that probably wouldn’t
20:04
20:04 have happened as fast as it did without
20:07
20:07 an encouraging framework, shall we say,
20:10
20:10 put around the need to have more women
20:13
20:13 on boards that companies were
20:15
20:15 essentially marked against as they went
20:18
20:18 through their annual governance
20:19
20:19 processes.
20:21
20:21 It’s so interesting because because of
20:23
20:23 the breadth of hats that you wear and
20:25
20:25 have worn,
20:26
20:26 you’ve clearly got quite rightly views
20:29
20:29 on where government needs to step up and
20:31
20:31 step back. So, I’m going to push you a
20:33
20:33 bit on that. Where would you like it to
20:35
20:35 step up?
20:36
20:36 I think there are areas where government
20:40
20:40 can tie funding
20:42
20:42 to aspirational targets. So, what I
20:45
20:45 don’t mean is saying that if you don’t
20:49
20:49 meet, let’s say, 30% to use the to use
20:52
20:52 the board parallel, um of gender
20:56
20:56 representation, you will not have
20:57
20:57 funding.
20:59
20:59 But what government can do is say in the
21:01
21:01 annual assessment of how you are
21:03
21:03 performing against this grand or
21:05
21:05 whatever the financial relationship is
21:07
21:07 that we have given you,
21:09
21:09 you will be assessed around how you are
21:13
21:13 working to be inclusive in how you
21:15
21:15 operate. Yeah.
21:17
21:17 And on the flip side, where’s an example
21:20
21:20 of where you have seen potentially
21:23
21:23 you might not use this word, but
21:24
21:24 overreach
21:26
21:26 over-involvement, you just think we have
21:28
21:28 to step back.
21:29
21:29 Well, I think a great example of
21:30
21:30 overreach, in my view, would be how the
21:32
21:32 European Union approached the AI Act.
21:35
21:35 Because there was, rightly, as there is
21:38
21:38 here in the UK and in many countries, a
21:40
21:40 concern around how AI would impact
21:43
21:43 society.
21:45
21:45 But the gut reaction then to legislate
21:48
21:48 in a way that was quite constraining
21:52
21:52 and will actually, and has been
21:55
21:55 demonstrated to potentially inhibit EU
21:58
21:58 growth as a result,
21:60
21:60 is something that they’re now having to
22:02
22:02 unravel.
22:03
22:03 And so, I think that’s a great example
22:05
22:05 of probably too hasty legislation that
22:08
22:08 was too comprehensive for a technology
22:10
22:10 that’s moving too fast.
22:12
22:12 And and tying some of those things
22:14
22:14 together, something that we have talked
22:15
22:15 about um numerous times, how do we get
22:20
22:20 more funding into
22:23
22:23 women-led
22:25
22:25 women-founded and co-founded companies,
22:27
22:27 because at the moment it is entirely
22:29
22:29 disproportionate, uh and a lot of people
22:32
22:32 are being left out of the room, let
22:33
22:33 alone not having a seat at the table.
22:36
22:36 So, we talk a lot about this in terms of
22:38
22:38 gender, but you know, the reality is is,
22:40
22:40 you and I well know, this is much beyond
22:42
22:42 gender. This is particularly around um
22:45
22:45 social advantage and how you ensure
22:48
22:48 that, you know, people from lower
22:49
22:49 socioeconomic backgrounds have that
22:51
22:51 opportunity as well. But I think the way
22:53
22:53 we will win this argument is by actually
22:56
22:56 making clear that this is how companies
22:59
22:59 perform better. This is how
23:01
23:01 organizations perform better.
23:03
23:03 I don’t believe that we have won that
23:05
23:05 argument.
23:06
23:06 Because once we’ve won that argument,
23:09
23:09 it’s absolutely simply obvious that you
23:12
23:12 need to have everyone at the table, but
23:14
23:14 we haven’t won that argument yet. I do
23:15
23:15 want to go back. This is
23:17
23:17 I
23:18
23:18 so interesting because we’re touching on
23:20
23:20 so many futures here. If you had to say
23:23
23:23 to a
23:25
23:25 well,
23:27
23:27 our listener today,
23:29
23:29 here’s what is changing about diplomacy
23:31
23:31 to go back to a previous hat, what would
23:33
23:33 you say? Something that I started to
23:36
23:36 think about when I was still in the
23:37
23:37 diplomatic service, so over 10 years
23:38
23:38 ago, was how
23:41
23:41 we need to use the way of thinking that
23:46
23:46 you would for
23:47
23:47 a country
23:49
23:49 vis-à-vis some of the most influential
23:51
23:51 companies. Mhm.
23:53
23:53 So, in the same way that in the US
23:55
23:55 context, we would have an embassy in
23:57
23:57 Washington
23:58
23:58 or a consulate general in San Francisco,
24:00
24:00 let’s go.
24:01
24:01 What would a mini embassy to Alphabet
24:04
24:04 look like? What would a mini embassy to
24:06
24:06 Meta look like? How do we really
24:08
24:08 understand
24:10
24:10 the operating culture, the people,
24:14
24:14 the structure, the ambitions of those
24:16
24:16 business better by actually thinking
24:18
24:18 through
24:19
24:19 how we work with them as we would in the
24:22
24:22 way that we work with a country.
24:24
24:24 Fascinating. So, an individual country
24:26
24:26 would indeed set up those bridges, those
24:29
24:29 embassies, which might help with
24:31
24:31 translation,
24:33
24:33 with exchange of ideas, perhaps.
24:35
24:35 Exactly. So,
24:37
24:37 if you think about the potential to
24:38
24:38 impact in this context of the UK’s
24:40
24:40 future, the reality is Alphabet,
24:44
24:44 Microsoft, Meta,
24:47
24:47 OpenAI, they will have more influence on
24:50
24:50 the UK’s future than a smaller
24:53
24:53 middle-income country or small economy
24:55
24:55 country where the UK would
24:59
24:59 historically and in the future have a
25:01
25:01 significant representation. Yeah. So,
25:03
25:03 why do we not think about companies in
25:06
25:06 the same way?
25:08
25:08 >> [snorts]
25:08
25:08 >> When it all boils down,
25:11
25:11 what is the number one skill or one or
25:14
25:14 two skills
25:15
25:15 that you think a future diplomat will
25:17
25:17 have to have? And are they any different
25:19
25:19 to the ones that you would have needed
25:20
25:20 to thrive in doing what you did?
25:23
25:23 I think there’s one skill that has
25:24
25:24 always been the core skill of a diplomat
25:26
25:26 and always will be the core skill of a
25:27
25:27 diplomat, and that’s listening.
25:31
25:31 You need to be able to really understand
25:33
25:33 what the person next to you is saying.
25:36
25:36 And that takes a certain skill.
25:39
25:39 What’s the top thing you’ve learned
25:40
25:40 about how to become a better listener?
25:44
25:44 I am somebody who tends to think quite
25:46
25:46 quickly,
25:47
25:47 and that can often translate to saying
25:50
25:50 things quite quickly. And actually, one
25:52
25:52 of the things that I’ve definitely
25:54
25:54 learned over the years is actually
25:57
25:57 don’t be the necessarily the first
25:58
25:58 person to comment. Actually, just step
26:00
26:00 back, listen, absorb, and then comment.
26:03
26:03 And you can probably really add more
26:05
26:05 value as a result. Pick another number,
26:08
26:08 one to 10. Three.
26:10
26:10 What did your time I think we’ve covered
26:12
26:12 a bit of this, but what did your time as
26:13
26:13 Consul General in San Francisco teach
26:15
26:15 you
26:16
26:16 about how the future
26:18
26:18 actually gets built?
26:21
26:21 So, something that a lot of people don’t
26:24
26:24 realize if they’ve not spent time in the
26:26
26:26 Bay Area
26:27
26:27 is how
26:29
26:29 there’s probably
26:31
26:31 say somewhere between like 40 people,
26:34
26:34 somewhere around 40 people
26:36
26:36 who have been so instrumental
26:39
26:39 to building the UK system in the Bay
26:42
26:42 Area and remain so instrumental to its
26:45
26:45 future.
26:46
26:46 What do I mean by that? It’s people who
26:49
26:49 first worked together in their 20s,
26:51
26:51 who then invested in each other’s
26:53
26:53 companies when they went their separate
26:55
26:55 ways.
26:56
26:56 Who then moved into the world of venture
26:58
26:58 capital.
26:60
26:60 And continued to invest and support each
27:03
27:03 other in different companies as they as
27:04
27:04 they scaled and progressed.
27:06
27:06 And that is a really really tight group
27:10
27:10 of people.
27:11
27:11 And that is so fundamental in my view to
27:15
27:15 the success of that ecosystem. One final
27:17
27:17 number Priya.
27:18
27:18 Uh let’s go five.
27:20
27:20 >> Five. Straight in the middle.
27:23
27:23 Very close to your um day-to-day work.
27:25
27:25 What does a globally minded founder
27:28
27:28 actually do differently day-to-day? A
27:31
27:31 globally minded founder, that’s an
27:32
27:32 interesting thought.
27:34
27:34 So um a very dear friend of mine um
27:38
27:38 is a guy called Patrick Chung who is in
27:41
27:41 venture capital and um now is the
27:44
27:44 co-founder of a fund called Xfund which
27:46
27:46 manages Harvard’s um
27:48
27:48 investments in VC and other things.
27:50
27:50 Um
27:52
27:52 he and I had this conversation around
27:54
27:54 globally minded founders and what this
27:55
27:55 looks like many years ago. And I will
27:57
27:57 stand by a replication of the answer he
27:59
27:59 gave me when I asked him that question.
28:02
28:02 Which is that it’s about building a
28:04
28:04 company
28:05
28:05 for global presence from day one.
28:10
28:10 So don’t set up your company
28:12
28:12 as a British business, as an Indian
28:14
28:14 business, as an American business, as a
28:16
28:16 Chinese business. Set it up as a global
28:18
28:18 business.
28:19
28:19 Which is a different mindset, it’s a
28:21
28:21 different structure, it’s a different
28:22
28:22 way of operating.
28:23
28:23 >> Out of interest, um
28:26
28:26 when you wear your different hats,
28:28
28:28 you chair the advisory board of a
28:29
28:29 business school, Durham Business School.
28:31
28:31 Uh you serve on a board of at least one
28:34
28:34 well-known sport.
28:36
28:36 Badminton, Team GB. Team GB.
28:39
28:39 Are you different Priya with each of
28:41
28:41 your hats?
28:43
28:43 >> [snorts]
28:44
28:44 >> I’d like to think I’m the same Priya.
28:48
28:48 And the reason I say that is because I
28:50
28:50 think the value I bring to each of those
28:51
28:51 hats
28:53
28:53 is the experience you get from all of
28:57
28:57 the other roles that you have.
28:58
28:58 >> Uh-huh.
28:59
28:59 Um and I would like to think that if you
29:02
29:02 asked my board colleagues on the listed
29:04
29:04 boards that I’m on
29:06
29:06 or my board colleagues on the Team GB
29:09
29:09 Badminton boards
29:10
29:10 they would say that I stand for the same
29:12
29:12 things in the conversations we have and
29:15
29:15 that I am consistent and hopefully
29:19
29:19 authentic across those different boards.
29:21
29:21 Well,
29:22
29:22 it’s a funny thought, isn’t it? Um or
29:24
29:24 it’s an intriguing word, consistency,
29:26
29:26 because I suppose there is another way
29:28
29:28 of thinking about it which says
29:31
29:31 we can all behave differently in
29:33
29:33 different environments and it would be
29:35
29:35 understandable, I think, um if you
29:37
29:37 behave differently in a
29:39
29:39 UKRI board meetings than how you did
29:41
29:41 around a board table of a quote scrappy
29:44
29:44 startup. I don’t know. I’m just sort of
29:46
29:46 thinking out loud here, but uh I I get
29:48
29:48 the image of you working between such
29:49
29:49 different worlds. I just want to get a a
29:51
29:51 look behind the scenes.
29:52
29:52 >> Well, I may not always wear jeans,
29:53
29:53 Ollie. I think that is the big
29:55
29:55 difference for for how you may turn up
29:57
29:57 to different things.
29:59
29:59 You know, you’re you’re you’re right.
30:01
30:01 The value you will bring will always be
30:04
30:04 slightly
30:05
30:05 dependent on the environment in which
30:07
30:07 you’re working. You know, there’s no
30:09
30:09 point me turning up at a UKRI board and
30:12
30:12 bringing sort of lots of insights from
30:13
30:13 working in government because there’s
30:15
30:15 lots of people around that table who
30:16
30:16 have that experience. Um
30:19
30:19 but there will be insights from my
30:21
30:21 experience on the venture capital side
30:23
30:23 or my experience on the startup side
30:25
30:25 that will be super valuable, including
30:27
30:27 the the the global experience that I can
30:28
30:28 bring to the table. So,
30:30
30:30 you will inevitably bring different
30:32
30:32 value
30:33
30:33 but I do think fundamentally it’s
30:34
30:34 important that you remain
30:38
30:38 authentic throughout all your different
30:40
30:40 interactions and don’t become someone
30:41
30:41 else. Right. So, on that, then, you are
30:44
30:44 um
30:45
30:45 affable, you’re diplomatic. Um
30:49
30:49 what have you learned about telling
30:50
30:50 people things they don’t want to hear?
30:53
30:53 I think that one of the most important
30:56
30:56 skills you can learn in life
30:58
30:58 is the skill to have a difficult
30:59
30:59 conversation.
31:01
31:01 So,
31:02
31:02 in lots of different contexts over the
31:04
31:04 years, I’ve had to have difficult
31:06
31:06 conversations, whether that’s
31:08
31:08 yeah, telling somebody that there’s no
31:11
31:11 role for them anymore in a company,
31:13
31:13 whether that’s passing on bad news to an
31:16
31:16 individual.
31:17
31:17 Um
31:19
31:19 it’s really important to be able to do
31:21
31:21 that in an empathetic way,
31:24
31:24 but also to have a degree of honesty and
31:26
31:26 transparency in how you have a
31:27
31:27 conversation.
31:29
31:29 I think some of the biggest
31:30
31:30 misunderstandings people have is where
31:32
31:32 they can’t actually just tell somebody
31:35
31:35 straight
31:36
31:36 what’s on their mind.
31:38
31:38 And that conversation gets avoided
31:40
31:40 entirely.
31:41
31:41 The conversation gets avoided, but also
31:43
31:43 then misunderstandings
31:45
31:45 escalate.
31:47
31:47 Yeah, totally agree. Um
31:50
31:50 one thing that’s on my mind or on our
31:53
31:53 mind at Future Forum a lot, and it goes
31:55
31:55 alongside lots of the themes we’re
31:57
31:57 exploring from
31:59
31:59 Living Planet, Human Upgrades, Work
32:02
32:02 Reimagined, is almost this sort of meta
32:04
32:04 layer of
32:06
32:06 skills, if you like, superpowers for the
32:08
32:08 future.
32:10
32:10 Things we’re going to need to get good
32:11
32:11 at.
32:12
32:12 So, I’m conscious that I’m sort of
32:14
32:14 brainstorming out loud with you in front
32:15
32:15 of our
32:16
32:16 viewer and listener. Um
32:19
32:19 what would you add as we’re putting that
32:21
32:21 list together based on what you’ve
32:22
32:22 learned? What do
32:24
32:24 futurists, you know, future navigators
32:26
32:26 need to get good at?
32:29
32:29 I think there is a breadth of skills
32:30
32:30 that people will need to have.
32:32
32:32 So, in the world that we’ve just talked
32:35
32:35 through, people will obviously need to
32:37
32:37 be comfortable with technology,
32:39
32:39 comfortable with understanding how um
32:42
32:42 technology works.
32:44
32:44 But the skills that are really going to
32:46
32:46 be sort of uniquely human skills are the
32:50
32:50 sort of creativity,
32:52
32:52 the critical thinking, the logical
32:54
32:54 reasoning. Those sorts of things are
32:56
32:56 things that I think are really important
32:59
32:59 and actually undervalued skills in a lot
33:02
33:02 of our more traditional education
33:04
33:04 system.
33:04
33:04 >> Yep.
33:05
33:05 Yeah, really interesting. Um we use a
33:08
33:08 phrase a lot at Future Forum around
33:09
33:09 leaving your lane. And I’m trying to
33:11
33:11 understand not understand, but I’m
33:13
33:13 trying to work out in my own mind
33:15
33:15 to what extent you have left your lane
33:17
33:17 because actually there are so many
33:19
33:19 threads that connect all of the dots.
33:22
33:22 And yet there must be times when you’ve
33:23
33:23 thought, “Well, we’re not in Kansas
33:25
33:25 anymore. This is very different.”
33:28
33:28 So um I I might like to think that I’m
33:31
33:31 slightly breaking your leaving your lane
33:33
33:33 model, I’m afraid, Ollie, because the
33:35
33:35 reality is I have so many lanes because
33:37
33:37 I operate across government, across
33:38
33:38 venture capital, across startups, across
33:40
33:40 listed companies, and and uh third
33:43
33:43 sector as well.
33:44
33:44 So those are all different lanes with
33:46
33:46 different ways of operating.
33:48
33:48 >> [laughter]
33:48
33:48 >> So I think the lane analogy may be
33:50
33:50 wearing thin. However,
33:52
33:52 um you know, if we look at the
33:54
33:54 horizontal, you’re absolutely right to
33:56
33:56 say that I think there are a few things
33:57
33:57 that cut across that.
33:59
33:59 Um those would be things like, you know,
34:02
34:02 how you think through
34:04
34:04 international relationships and
34:06
34:06 geopolitics and how that sort of
34:07
34:07 underpins the world, thinking about
34:10
34:10 technology and disruption and innovation
34:12
34:12 and what that means for
34:14
34:14 how those um different organizations or
34:17
34:17 companies will operate, how you think
34:19
34:19 through inclusion and how you realize
34:22
34:22 the benefits of an inclusive economy for
34:24
34:24 all of those areas. So So there are sort
34:26
34:26 of horizontal threads um that cut across
34:29
34:29 my lane. So we might need to think of a
34:30
34:30 new sort of analogy, more of a sort of
34:33
34:33 uh I don’t know noughts and crosses
34:34
34:34 analogy or something to make it work.
34:36
34:36 Well, I’m going to take that away and
34:38
34:38 ponder it. You said something earlier
34:40
34:40 which really fascinates me which is that
34:42
34:42 um and I’ll paraphrase but the tiny
34:46
34:46 percentage of a country’s relationships
34:49
34:49 with another country being about the
34:51
34:51 government to government relationships.
34:53
34:53 So, if we do step back and think about
34:55
34:55 the future of the UK’s relationship with
34:58
34:58 a country like India. [snorts]
34:60
34:60 What is your sense of how that will be
35:02
35:02 determined? What will be the main
35:05
35:05 factors which influence how that now
35:07
35:07 plays out?
35:09
35:09 Well, in the context specifically of
35:10
35:10 India, there’s a huge opportunity
35:12
35:12 arising for the UK which is the free
35:14
35:14 trade agreement that’s been uh agreed by
35:16
35:16 both sides and
35:18
35:18 and yeah, is now essentially coming into
35:21
35:21 force and will provide great economic
35:23
35:23 opportunity across so many different
35:25
35:25 areas. Agreed towards the end of last
35:27
35:27 year coming to fruition mid-2026.
35:30
35:30 >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s it’s
35:32
35:32 it’s real and it’s happening now. So,
35:34
35:34 that’s a
35:35
35:35 a very solid immediate opportunity.
35:37
35:37 Yeah, and will apply to presumably 99%
35:39
35:39 of goods and services flowing both ways.
35:41
35:41 >> Yeah, probably not 99% but a significant
35:44
35:44 proportion.
35:45
35:45 Um but I think what’s really interesting
35:46
35:46 about India is that there are many other
35:48
35:48 opportunities that are emerging. Um I
35:51
35:51 don’t know whether you’re you or your uh
35:53
35:53 viewers and listeners will be aware that
35:55
35:55 actually there’s around nine UK
35:57
35:57 universities that have set up campuses
35:59
35:59 in India now.
36:01
36:01 So, what will that mean when we have a
36:04
36:04 huge cohort of people going through
36:06
36:06 let’s say the University of
36:07
36:07 Southampton’s campus in Delhi
36:10
36:10 who are experiencing that British
36:11
36:11 education in India, therefore connected
36:14
36:14 to the UK in a different way, probably
36:17
36:17 will you know, maybe make some match
36:18
36:18 with some of the educational experiences
36:20
36:20 in the UK too.
36:21
36:21 How does that change the future of the
36:23
36:23 of the relationship? So, there’s lots of
36:25
36:25 different opportunities that are
36:26
36:26 >> add another dimension. What else could
36:28
36:28 could we look forward to about that
36:30
36:30 relationship?
36:32
36:32 I mean, I think there are so many areas.
36:36
36:36 Um
36:36
36:36 and what is really great is that this
36:38
36:38 isn’t one way.
36:40
36:40 Yeah, the free trade agreement is
36:42
36:42 genuinely two-way.
36:44
36:44 But also there are so many things that
36:46
36:46 we can and should be learning from
36:47
36:47 India. Yeah, we saw talked earlier about
36:50
36:50 the digital payments infrastructure and
36:52
36:52 the opportunity that’s created for
36:54
36:54 opening up the the financial markets um
36:58
36:58 and how yeah, people do sort of
37:00
37:00 day-to-day commerce. Those sorts of
37:02
37:02 things are super exciting.
37:03
37:03 >> It’s it’s such an interesting point
37:04
37:04 though that it’s so reductive, isn’t it,
37:07
37:07 to say that the sum of what we can learn
37:09
37:09 from another country is based on what we
37:11
37:11 buy and sell to each other.
37:13
37:13 It’s it’s it’s such a limited view,
37:14
37:14 isn’t it?
37:15
37:15 >> Well, well that’s why it’s so
37:16
37:16 interesting to look at the university
37:17
37:17 collaboration because that’s a very
37:18
37:18 different thing. It’s um obviously, you
37:21
37:21 know, these are business operations in
37:24
37:24 many ways that in terms of how the
37:26
37:26 higher education uh institutions are
37:27
37:27 looking at it.
37:29
37:29 But it will create something very
37:31
37:31 different. Really interesting because
37:32
37:32 funnily enough Paul Lindley, guest on
37:34
37:34 tomorrow
37:36
37:36 chairing the play commission, how can we
37:37
37:37 be inspired by other countries on how we
37:39
37:39 treat our children, how we raise our
37:41
37:41 children, the education system when they
37:44
37:44 go to school. Um
37:47
37:47 so interesting. Now I need another hour
37:48
37:48 uh just to to start unpicking that. Um
37:51
37:51 the the name of the podcast Priya is
37:53
37:53 tomorrow. So tomorrow for you. What’s
37:55
37:55 coming up? What’s in your future? Any uh
37:58
37:58 anything you can tell us about?
38:01
38:01 I
38:02
38:02 absolutely love doing what I do.
38:05
38:05 And the reason I love it is because I
38:09
38:09 think these
38:11
38:11 elements I’ve described, so technology,
38:14
38:14 inclusion, the way that countries um and
38:17
38:17 societies interact are going to be as
38:21
38:21 important in the future as they are
38:23
38:23 today. And so, I don’t really have a
38:27
38:27 plan for tomorrow that’s doing something
38:29
38:29 different because I love what I do, and
38:32
38:32 I feel incredibly fortunate to wake up
38:34
38:34 every day and just do something that I
38:37
38:37 feel in my heart of hearts really
38:39
38:39 matters.
38:41
38:41 So, well, and and I hope you carry on
38:43
38:43 doing [laughter] that because it’s very
38:44
38:44 very valuable. Um super quick fire, a
38:46
38:46 bit more personal, so forgive me. Um
38:50
38:50 because you’re often on boards, PLCs, um
38:54
38:54 you know, huge research organizations,
38:57
38:57 I wonder if there’s a bit of you that
38:59
38:59 misses the rolling the sleeves up, hands
39:02
39:02 getting dirty, really um
39:05
39:05 anyway, the metaphors speak for
39:07
39:07 themselves, but you you you see where
39:09
39:09 I’m going with that. And and I’m being
39:11
39:11 rude and categorizing your work as board
39:13
39:13 level, but you see where I’m going.
39:15
39:15 So, um I’m fortunate in that yeah,
39:17
39:17 there’s many opportunities on all of my
39:19
39:19 hats to sort of as you to use your
39:21
39:21 language, roll up your sleeves and get
39:22
39:22 dirty if you want to.
39:24
39:24 Um I also think
39:26
39:26 it’s always good to know your own
39:28
39:28 strengths and where you play best.
39:31
39:31 And I definitely think that over the
39:33
39:33 years, you know, I’ve learned that
39:35
39:35 actually I can really add value at that
39:37
39:37 sort of more strategic board level, and
39:39
39:39 so why not spend more time doing that
39:42
39:42 sort of work? And not only that, I’ve
39:43
39:43 seen firsthand so many occasions over
39:46
39:46 the years, your ability to
39:47
39:47 cross-pollinate, to share the other
39:49
39:49 stuff you see, to add value to the thing
39:51
39:51 you’re talking to at that moment. So, I
39:53
39:53 I I I definitely see that. And that
39:55
39:55 comes back to the point about this is a
39:56
39:56 system. Yeah. And actually, I think
39:59
39:59 there’s
39:60
39:60 too few people
40:02
40:02 Yeah, you would be a notable exception
40:03
40:03 only who can actually bring that system
40:05
40:05 together.
40:06
40:06 And we need to have more people who are
40:08
40:08 looking at the connectivity between
40:10
40:10 different issues, different
40:11
40:11 interventions, and how things work. And
40:13
40:13 we’re thinking a lot about how does
40:14
40:14 Future Forum, how does Tomorrow become
40:16
40:16 more of a community, to use the phrase
40:18
40:18 rather than a series of one-off
40:20
40:20 gatherings.
40:22
40:22 Another pithy personal question,
40:23
40:23 politics. You’ve been involved in
40:25
40:25 politics to a large degree.
40:29
40:29 Why not go further into politics?
40:32
40:32 I think politics with the small p has
40:35
40:35 always been something that I’ve been
40:36
40:36 involved with and will always be
40:38
40:38 involved with.
40:39
40:39 I think in order to go into politics
40:41
40:41 with a large p um you need to feel in
40:45
40:45 the UK context at least a very strong
40:47
40:47 affiliation for a particular party.
40:49
40:49 And maybe as a civil servant of 20 years
40:53
40:53 you steer away from having that sort of
40:55
40:55 very strong affiliation with a
40:56
40:56 particular party. So it’s not on the
40:58
40:58 cards for me.
40:59
40:59 Understood.
41:01
41:01 Part of me is delighted. Part of me is
41:04
41:04 disappointed.
41:05
41:05 >> [laughter]
41:05
41:05 >> Okay. Um
41:07
41:07 and
41:08
41:08 penultimate question, go back to your
41:10
41:10 first day as your official role by the
41:13
41:13 way in India. I want to say
41:16
41:16 deputy high commissioner? No, what was
41:18
41:18 it? So in in India I was first secretary
41:21
41:21 political and bilateral affairs. Yes.
41:25
41:25 What did that mean in in India?
41:26
41:26 >> That meant basically I was the lead
41:28
41:28 person in understanding Indian politics
41:31
41:31 which fortunately I happened to have
41:33
41:33 studied at university so that helped.
41:36
41:36 But also I was the person whose job it
41:38
41:38 was to put together
41:40
41:40 the strategic relationship between UK
41:43
41:43 and India. So looking at how everything
41:44
41:44 worked together. So let me editing on
41:46
41:46 the fly I’m going to go back to that.
41:47
41:47 Okay. Penultimate question, I’m going to
41:49
41:49 go back to your first day on the job in
41:52
41:52 India.
41:53
41:53 Diplomat especially focused on the
41:55
41:55 relationship between Britain and India.
41:58
41:58 Give your former self a piece of advice
42:01
42:01 to help you thrive in that role.
42:05
42:05 I think the advice I would share would
42:07
42:07 be
42:09
42:09 really take the time to understand from
42:13
42:13 the experts that you have in
42:14
42:14 organizations like the British High
42:16
42:16 Commission in New Delhi, the local
42:18
42:18 staff, to understand how things work.
42:21
42:21 Both in terms of how the external world
42:23
42:23 works, but also, frankly, how the own
42:26
42:26 operation works with a within the
42:28
42:28 British High Commission, who’s who, how
42:30
42:30 you get things done. Those sorts of
42:32
42:32 insights are so valuable in all shapes
42:34
42:34 and sizes.
42:36
42:36 I love that you’ve included in that the
42:37
42:37 who as well as the what, because that is
42:40
42:40 the reality. Yeah, absolutely. In terms
42:42
42:42 of how things work. Um
42:44
42:44 okay, final question. We ask all our
42:47
42:47 guests on Tomorrow um to send a memo to
42:49
42:49 the future, and it could be uh to your
42:52
42:52 future self, it could be to a future
42:54
42:54 innovator, maybe even a future diplomat,
42:56
42:56 maybe in 10 years’ time, 20 years’ time.
42:58
42:58 Uh we’d love to know what you would say
42:60
42:60 to them, and if you’d tell our our
43:03
43:03 guests exactly what you’d say.
43:05
43:05 Well, I would love to say that actually
43:10
43:10 the world has delivered on the promises
43:13
43:13 that I identified here in 2026.
43:17
43:17 So, that means a world where
43:19
43:19 cultures and boundaries can be overcome
43:22
43:22 through diplomacy and dialogue, a world
43:25
43:25 where people who have not had the
43:28
43:28 opportunities to have the right seat at
43:30
43:30 the table have that seat at the table,
43:33
43:33 and therefore we’re seeing both the
43:35
43:35 really impressive economic impact of
43:38
43:38 that participation,
43:40
43:40 but also, most importantly, the
43:42
43:42 solutions to the biggest problems facing
43:46
43:46 our societies now in 2026
43:48
43:48 being addressed through the most dynamic
43:51
43:51 innovations coming through and the
43:53
43:53 brilliant people leading them. So, I
43:55
43:55 hope it’s a really exciting future to be
43:57
43:57 part of.
43:59
43:59 Priya, thank you for that brilliant
44:01
44:01 memo. Let me say uh for the record, I
44:04
44:04 have seen firsthand how you have shared
44:07
44:07 your experience and also how you’ve
44:09
44:09 helped people to get on and have better
44:12
44:12 relationships from such different
44:14
44:14 backgrounds. So, thank you. I’ve learned
44:15
44:15 a lot in this conversation. Priya Guha,
44:19
44:19 thank you so much for being our guest.
44:20
44:20 Thanks for having me, Ollie.
44:22
44:22 So, there you go, a veritable hat stand
44:24
44:24 of fascinating roles. Diplomat, advisor,
44:29
44:29 board member, investor,
44:32
44:32 a code breaker of many different sorts
44:34
44:34 and someone who gets us thinking, yes,
44:36
44:36 about the future of the UK, but also
44:39
44:39 about the future of other incredible
44:40
44:40 countries, including the United States
44:43
44:43 and including India as well. That’s
44:45
44:45 Priya Guha, today’s guest on Tomorrow.
44:48
44:48 If you’ve enjoyed [snorts] this
44:49
44:49 conversation, as I hope you have, please
44:51
44:51 do us a great service in sharing it with
44:54
44:54 anyone you think should have a listen.
44:57
44:57 This has been Tomorrow. I’m Ollie
44:58
44:58 Barrett and until next time, goodbye.
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