00:05 Hello and a very warm welcome to
00:07
00:07 Tomorrow, the Future Forum podcast. I’m
00:11
00:11 Ollie Barrett and the Future Forum is
00:13
00:13 all about bringing people together to
00:15
00:15 think about, to explore, and to design
00:19
00:19 the future together.
00:21
00:21 Our guest today is somebody who knows
00:23
00:23 all about all of those things. Somebody
00:27
00:27 who has spent their career at the
00:29
00:29 intersection of leadership, engineering,
00:31
00:31 science, and technology.
00:34
00:34 Someone with a background in bioscience,
00:36
00:36 indeed a PhD supported by Cancer
00:39
00:39 Research. Until recently, she was the
00:41
00:41 Chief Executive of the Royal Academy of
00:44
00:44 Engineering. Dr. Hayaatun Sillem,
00:46
00:46 welcome to Tomorrow.
00:47
00:47 >> Why, thank you, Ollie. Very happy to be
00:49
00:49 here. And congratulations on an amazing
00:52
00:52 leadership stint and lots more to come,
00:54
00:54 I know. Um, we ask all of our guests on
00:56
00:56 Tomorrow to give us a glimpse of the
00:59
00:59 future. Paint us a picture, something
01:01
01:01 you’ve seen, something that helps us
01:02
01:02 imagine what is to come.
01:05
01:05 I had a really glorious conversation
01:08
01:08 yesterday
01:09
01:09 with a next generation engineering
01:12
01:12 leader, and her passion is engineers as
01:16
01:16 stewards of the systems that we live in.
01:19
01:19 And to me, this is a glimpse of the
01:21
01:21 future because imagine in the same way
01:24
01:24 that ecologists are there to nurture and
01:27
01:27 care for our ecological systems, our
01:29
01:29 ecosystems, imagine if engineers were
01:32
01:32 seen and actually able to execute a role
01:36
01:36 as stewards of the fabricated systems
01:40
01:40 that underpin our lives, whether that’s
01:41
01:41 the built environment or the digital
01:44
01:44 infrastructure that that we all depend
01:46
01:46 on. And I think it’s a very different
01:48
01:48 positioning of
01:50
01:50 what engineers are there to do in our
01:52
01:52 world. It’s a huge reframe, isn’t it?
01:55
01:55 It’s like stepping back and saying,
01:57
01:57 rather than obsessing about the actual
01:59
01:59 of the play, let’s look at the whole
02:00
02:00 theater in which in which we’re working.
02:03
02:03 And that that way of thinking um
02:06
02:06 hugely refreshing. So,
02:08
02:08 let’s stick with that theme of stepping
02:09
02:09 back.
02:10
02:10 You’ve [snorts] recently stepped back
02:11
02:11 from the helm,
02:12
02:12 um
02:13
02:13 Royal Academy of Engineering, over 20
02:15
02:15 years in that organization. What’s
02:17
02:17 something that
02:18
02:18 becomes easier to see only once you’ve
02:21
02:21 stepped back?
02:22
02:22 Yeah, that’s a big question. And
02:24
02:24 obviously, when you spend so long in one
02:25
02:25 organization, it is hard to kind of
02:28
02:28 observe yourself. So, with a bit of
02:31
02:31 distance, I think the overwhelming
02:34
02:34 reflection I have is
02:36
02:36 wow, I am so grateful for that
02:37
02:37 opportunity. And it sounds maybe a bit
02:39
02:39 trite,
02:40
02:40 but I think it’s easy to take for
02:42
02:42 granted how
02:44
02:44 much of a privilege it is to be given
02:47
02:47 the chance to lead.
02:49
02:49 It’s easy to forget that the quality and
02:52
02:52 the commitment and the integrity of the
02:53
02:53 people you work with is not something
02:56
02:56 that you should take for granted. And
02:58
02:58 so, my overwhelming feeling on looking
02:60
03:00 back, you know, I’ve got the rearview
03:01
03:01 mirror now,
03:02
03:02 uh you know, looking looking in the
03:04
03:04 rearview mirror, looking back, my
03:05
03:05 overwhelming sense is I am so grateful
03:07
03:07 to have had that opportunity. And I
03:10
03:10 could never have designed that for
03:12
03:12 myself. I could never have said, “Right,
03:14
03:14 this is what I’m going to spend the next
03:15
03:15 20 years doing.” And when I started as
03:18
03:18 CEO, kind of eight I did eight years as
03:20
03:20 CEO, when I started in post, I could
03:22
03:22 never have foreseen what that eight
03:23
03:23 years would be, what it would involve,
03:25
03:25 what it would feel like.
03:27
03:27 But looking back, I think, “Wow, I
03:29
03:29 wouldn’t have done it any differently.”
03:30
03:30 Yeah, excellent reflection. So, um
03:32
03:32 that’s partly rearview mirror. We’re
03:34
03:34 going to be looking out front now and
03:36
03:36 thinking about the future. I mean, in in
03:38
03:38 in very broad terms, how do you tend to
03:40
03:40 think about the future? Uh well,
03:43
03:43 I mean, I am one of life’s relentless
03:45
03:45 optimist, Ollie. I’m quite happy to
03:47
03:47 admit that up front.
03:49
03:49 And uh I like to say that I’m an active
03:52
03:52 optimist, which means that I don’t just
03:53
03:53 hope the future’s going to be better. I
03:55
03:55 try and do something that will
03:57
03:57 hopefully
03:58
03:58 encourage that that outcome I’m hoping
03:60
03:60 for.
04:01
04:01 But I do I do think this is a quite a
04:03
04:03 tough time for optimists.
04:05
04:05 I think when you look at so many of the
04:08
04:08 changes that have hit us at a pace that
04:11
04:11 few of us expected, the frame of
04:13
04:13 reference has moved, and things that we
04:16
04:16 sort of we used to sort of
04:18
04:18 self-correcting or rebalancing don’t
04:21
04:21 seem to be things that we can assume
04:22
04:22 will happen. And on that
04:24
04:24 we might describe some of the changes as
04:26
04:26 almost being inevitable now because of
04:28
04:28 the strength of momentum. In terms of
04:30
04:30 some of the choices that could be an
04:32
04:32 engineering, doesn’t have to be,
04:34
04:34 that we have to make now,
04:36
04:36 what starts to come to your mind? Mhm.
04:39
04:39 So you were saying about engineering, um
04:42
04:42 if I take you back to that word system,
04:44
04:44 that I’m always using around the future
04:46
04:46 that I envisage,
04:47
04:47 uh I think one of the things that we
04:49
04:49 need to obsess about a bit more in the
04:52
04:52 context of engineering and and is a
04:53
04:53 choice that the profession has,
04:55
04:55 is that
04:57
04:57 engineering systems, engineered systems,
04:60
04:60 are sorry to insert jargon in this,
05:02
05:02 they’re socio-technical systems. They
05:04
05:04 involve people
05:06
05:06 as well as engineered structures and
05:08
05:08 functions.
05:10
05:10 And unless you remember that this is all
05:12
05:12 about people, this has to be a you know,
05:13
05:13 human-centric profession,
05:15
05:15 unless you are willing to, as I said,
05:18
05:18 obsess about that and elevate that to
05:20
05:20 the very center of the way you perceive
05:22
05:22 your profession, you will never deliver
05:24
05:24 the best possible outcomes for society,
05:26
05:26 and you will not deliver outcomes that
05:28
05:28 serve all of society. So in that case,
05:30
05:30 if we think about
05:32
05:32 organizations and systems, who’s in,
05:35
05:35 who’s out, who’s part of something, who
05:37
05:37 isn’t part of something, it’s far more
05:40
05:40 fluid in that sense, as you’re
05:42
05:42 explaining it. You have on numerous
05:44
05:44 occasions described yourself as an
05:48
05:48 outsider.
05:50
05:50 What do you mean when you say that word
05:52
05:52 and help us understand it in the context
05:54
05:54 of your journey?
05:55
05:55 Yes. So, I
05:58
05:58 come from a very mixed
06:00
06:00 background in terms of my ethnicity, but
06:03
06:03 also the religious and the cultural
06:05
06:05 language dimensions.
06:07
06:07 And so, it’s not an exaggeration to say
06:09
06:09 that
06:10
06:10 probably my earliest memories are to do
06:13
06:13 with thinking how I have to behave in a
06:16
06:16 particular group that I’m in. So, from a
06:18
06:18 very, very early age I was attuned to
06:20
06:20 the fact that there were different
06:21
06:21 expectations, different social norms.
06:24
06:24 And I don’t see that as a negative
06:25
06:25 memory. That was just a feature of my
06:27
06:27 life.
06:28
06:28 And I think what I got very good at was
06:32
06:32 I used to phrase knocking the corners
06:34
06:34 off myself.
06:35
06:35 Minimizing that sense of difference. So,
06:37
06:37 we’d be sitting together, Ollie and I,
06:38
06:38 we’d be subconsciously tuning myself to
06:41
06:41 connect with the bits that we have in
06:43
06:43 common. And the reality is we all have
06:45
06:45 so much in common. But I’d be trying to
06:47
06:47 draw your attention away from the
06:48
06:48 differences towards that sense of
06:50
06:50 commonality. So, I was starting to build
06:51
06:51 a bridge between the two of us.
06:53
06:53 And actually it’s a marvelous skill to
06:54
06:54 have. I mean, what I was learning was
06:56
06:56 how to have empathy without it ever
06:58
06:58 being a thing I had to do consciously.
07:01
07:01 Um so, I always always was acutely aware
07:03
07:03 that
07:05
07:05 we don’t all feel the same way. We don’t
07:06
07:06 all see the world from the same vantage
07:08
07:08 point.
07:09
07:09 Love that. So, what’s an example then of
07:12
07:12 rediscovering your edges in that sense?
07:15
07:15 If you Help help us bring that to life,
07:17
07:17 yeah. Um
07:18
07:18 well, part of it was just being less
07:20
07:20 private. So, I think I was a big a big
07:24
07:24 fan of compartmentalizations.
07:26
07:26 Um
07:26
07:26 I would
07:28
07:28 uh you know, present a side of myself in
07:30
07:30 a professional context that had clear
07:32
07:32 boundaries around it. And actually it
07:34
07:34 was a combination of factors that led me
07:35
07:35 to change. I think also being when I was
07:37
07:37 appointed the CEO, I I realized
07:40
07:40 as a CEO, people want to know about you.
07:42
07:42 They want to hear you about you as a
07:44
07:44 whole human. It’s not about a job title.
07:47
07:47 >> Yes. And and so in that context, I
07:49
07:49 became more open about talking about
07:51
07:51 what was happening in the rest of my
07:52
07:52 life. I would feel more comfortable
07:54
07:54 challenging you if you said something
07:55
07:55 that I felt
07:57
07:57 was
07:58
07:58 making me or anyone else feel
07:59
07:59 uncomfortable. And of course, over time
08:02
08:02 what I realized is
08:04
08:04 my happy place is being an outsider on
08:07
08:07 the inside. So, I actually almost have
08:10
08:10 an aversion to a group where I feel
08:13
08:13 we’re tribe. Yeah. And what I really
08:15
08:15 enjoy doing is be able to be different,
08:17
08:17 but in a way that creates a bridge
08:19
08:19 between the insiders and the outsiders,
08:20
08:20 between the majority group and the
08:22
08:22 minority group.
08:23
08:23 >> that thought, that ability to retain
08:24
08:24 that clear thinking and not to over
08:28
08:28 filter, over edit, even though you could
08:30
08:30 become very used to the surroundings.
08:32
08:32 Yes. And and I think it’s it’s also
08:35
08:35 it’s a it’s a dynamic state. Like none
08:38
08:38 of us are the finished product. And as I
08:41
08:41 have now
08:42
08:42 um got older, I guess, and have been
08:46
08:46 more established, I also feel more able
08:48
08:48 to speak my mind on topics I would have
08:50
08:50 been very careful about previously.
08:52
08:52 I feel more comfortable with doing
08:54
08:54 things unprepared. Yes. And these are
08:56
08:56 all part of that leaning into your
08:58
08:58 differentness, not feeling like you have
09:00
09:00 to smooth over those edges.
09:03
09:03 >> Right. So, I’m going to take you up on
09:04
09:04 this
09:05
09:05 >> [laughter]
09:05
09:05 >> Uh-oh.
09:06
09:06 being unprepared because uh I wasn’t
09:09
09:09 going to do this, but you’ve inspired
09:11
09:11 me. I have got and we’ll do You can
09:14
09:14 think of this as slightly quick fire.
09:16
09:16 Okay. I’ll do my best. But I’ve got 10
09:19
09:19 pithier questions that I wanted to ask
09:21
09:21 you. We’re not going to do all 10,
09:22
09:22 >> Okay. All right.
09:23
09:23 >> but I’m literally going to ask you to
09:24
09:24 pick a number between 1 and 10 and we’ll
09:26
09:26 rattle through three of those. Okay,
09:28
09:28 four. Four.
09:30
09:30 What’s a problem that young people
09:33
09:33 understand better than today’s leaders?
09:38
09:38 I find that when I connect with the
09:41
09:41 younger generation,
09:43
09:43 they have much more clarity about their
09:46
09:46 expectations of the world around them
09:48
09:48 than I ever had. I didn’t feel I had
09:50
09:50 permission to think in that way. And so,
09:52
09:52 I admire that slightly no-nonsense sense
09:55
09:55 of “This is not what I want from the
09:57
09:57 world, and this is what I’m hoping for
09:59
09:59 or expecting.” And so, I think I we
10:01
10:01 could definitely learn from that. Yeah.
10:03
10:03 Love that. You thought this round was
10:05
10:05 going to be more Marmite or Vegemite,
10:06
10:06 didn’t you? I I had no idea. Pick
10:09
10:09 another number. Uh three. Number three.
10:11
10:11 What one rule, process, or norm that
10:15
10:15 made sense once
10:17
10:17 now holds us back?
10:21
10:21 That there is a right answer.
10:24
10:24 We are in
10:25
10:25 >> Spoken as a true PhD.
10:27
10:27 >> [laughter]
10:28
10:28 >> Yeah, I can barely remember my PhD only.
10:31
10:31 But,
10:32
10:32 I think that, you know, there was a time
10:34
10:34 when hierarchy and establishment and the
10:37
10:37 kind of homogeneity of people in
10:39
10:39 decision-making roles meant that we we
10:41
10:41 bought into the idea that there was a
10:43
10:43 clear right
10:45
10:45 and a clear norm. And I think we’re now
10:47
10:47 in an immensely complex, heterogeneous,
10:49
10:49 dynamic world where we know that doesn’t
10:52
10:52 make sense anymore. Yeah.
10:54
10:54 I want to expand this from being the
10:55
10:55 quick fire section, but I’ll leave it
10:58
10:58 cuz we will return to it.
10:59
10:59 >> You’re in control of it. Do what you
11:00
11:00 like.
11:01
11:01 >> a final number.
11:03
11:03 Nine. Number nine.
11:05
11:05 >> [snorts]
11:05
11:05 >> If you could make one leadership
11:08
11:08 question compulsory
11:11
11:11 at board level,
11:13
11:13 what would it be? Question that all
11:15
11:15 boards should be asking themselves.
11:17
11:17 Whose voice is not being heard in this
11:19
11:19 room?
11:21
11:21 So, I am going to follow that.
11:24
11:24 Um
11:25
11:25 how And you’ve sat on boards of enormous
11:28
11:28 private sector companies,
11:30
11:30 trustee of charities, chair charities.
11:33
11:33 Have you got an example of where that
11:35
11:35 question has led to a shift or a change?
11:40
11:40 I think I’m often the person that comes
11:42
11:42 in because they’ve realized
11:44
11:44 >> [laughter]
11:44
11:44 >> they don’t have enough diverse voices in
11:47
11:47 the room.
11:48
11:48 So, I I often see my role as to to
11:51
11:51 ensure that we’re funneling in
11:55
11:55 voices and perspectives of people who
11:57
11:57 don’t naturally get the board seat. And
11:60
11:60 I think it has
12:01
12:01 you cannot reduce it to one
12:05
12:05 you know, one dimension of change. It
12:07
12:07 changes everything. The fact that you’re
12:09
12:09 asking the question is a change because
12:12
12:12 it means that you’re opening yourself
12:13
12:13 out to a state of vulnerability, but
12:16
12:16 also to a desire to improve and to
12:19
12:19 improve the rigor of what you’re doing.
12:21
12:21 It’s very often not about what that
12:23
12:23 voice says. It’s about your awareness
12:26
12:26 that you have limited cognitive
12:28
12:28 diversity in that room, you have limited
12:31
12:31 access to the perspectives you need to
12:32
12:32 build your 3D model of how your
12:35
12:35 organization really works. I love that
12:39
12:39 being symbolized around that boardroom
12:41
12:41 table, a story from a former CTO of the
12:43
12:43 United States about President Obama’s
12:46
12:46 ability to spot that
12:48
12:48 empty chair and think what would they be
12:50
12:50 saying? Why aren’t they here?
12:52
12:52 >> And to know that there are an infinite
12:54
12:54 numbers of empty empty chairs.
12:55
12:55 >> Right. Right. There is an infinite
12:56
12:56 number of empty chairs.
12:57
12:57 >> Yeah. It’s
12:59
12:59 I’m going to come back to that thought
13:00
13:00 of
13:01
13:01 the edge. Mhm. Not for organizations,
13:04
13:04 but much wider in terms of industries,
13:06
13:06 engineering more broadly.
13:08
13:08 You’ve had so many conversations, most
13:10
13:10 of them obviously not on mic. Take us to
13:13
13:13 the edge of what you’ve seen. What gives
13:15
13:15 us that clue about where we’re going? I
13:17
13:17 mean, I think we’re in a world where
13:19
13:19 none of us can fail to be aware of
13:22
13:22 the breakneck speed of technological
13:24
13:24 developments that sound so like science
13:27
13:27 fiction, it’s actually quite hard to
13:28
13:28 compute that they are not.
13:31
13:31 Um so, one of the things I talked a lot
13:33
13:33 about is convergence between, you know,
13:36
13:36 the extraordinary developments that are
13:37
13:37 happening. Obviously, AI being one of
13:40
13:40 the most
13:41
13:41 uh well-ventilated right now. Um quantum
13:44
13:44 being another. But, also what’s
13:46
13:46 happening in what we maybe call entering
13:48
13:48 biology. So, the application of these
13:51
13:51 very powerful technological tools to the
13:53
13:53 domain of biology and health and so
13:55
13:55 forth.
13:56
13:56 Um so, that
13:57
13:57 that’s exciting and also slightly
13:59
13:59 terrifying because we none of us really
14:01
14:01 know the
14:02
14:02 emergent properties that might arise
14:04
14:04 from convergence. So, I think in a way
14:06
14:06 that’s better understood as something
14:09
14:09 that the frontier is going to evolve and
14:11
14:11 there’s some great books about this.
14:12
14:12 But,
14:13
14:13 personally, what I think has to
14:16
14:16 accompany that
14:18
14:18 um
14:20
14:20 kind of almost hypnotic excitement or
14:23
14:23 fear about where technology might take
14:27
14:27 us is the awareness that we all have
14:29
14:29 agency and we need to think deliberately
14:32
14:32 about what do we want these ever more
14:33
14:33 powerful tools to enable us to do. And
14:36
14:36 so, one of the things I hope the
14:37
14:37 frontier will start to prioritize in the
14:39
14:39 future
14:40
14:40 is that
14:42
14:42 novelty is not good in its own right.
14:45
14:45 And actually, if we think about changes
14:49
14:49 we need to make in the world,
14:50
14:50 we need to be able to use technology
14:54
14:54 to improve the way we do our BAU, our
14:56
14:56 business as usual. We need to, for
14:58
14:58 example, prioritize things like
14:60
14:60 circularity, utilizing existing
15:02
15:02 materials in far more creative,
15:05
15:05 sustainable ways. And the thing about
15:07
15:07 the focus on frontier technology is
15:09
15:09 sometimes we always keep looking further
15:11
15:11 and further into the future and forget
15:12
15:12 to look at what they can do for us
15:14
15:14 today.
15:14
15:14 >> Right. And in practical terms around the
15:16
15:16 board table, if an experiment is so
15:19
15:19 frivolous that it doesn’t go to the core
15:22
15:22 needs of the organization, it’s not
15:24
15:24 going to win hearts and minds around the
15:25
15:25 boardroom table anyway. Exactly.
15:28
15:28 Exactly. And to test ourselves hard on
15:31
15:31 what outcomes are we delivering through
15:34
15:34 these advances
15:36
15:36 that we can validate as having improved
15:38
15:38 lives.
15:39
15:39 >> [snorts]
15:40
15:40 >> So on this
15:41
15:41 I’m very taken by that word convergence
15:43
15:43 because
15:44
15:44 in human terms what that’s going to mean
15:46
15:46 is people from very different
15:47
15:47 disciplines, very different walks of
15:48
15:48 life coming together.
15:49
15:49 >> Mhm.
15:51
15:51 I’m almost And one of our mantra uh um
15:54
15:54 Future Forum is leave your lane.
15:57
15:57 So I well first question is almost
15:59
15:59 advice for navigators really because it
16:02
16:02 will be tempting back to your previous
16:03
16:03 stories about leaving your lane to
16:07
16:07 become like
16:09
16:09 the people you are going to meet.
16:11
16:11 Wow. So I mean
16:13
16:13 we should have talked earlier because
16:15
16:15 honestly
16:16
16:16 I think I’m the role model of uh
16:18
16:18 swerving in and out of your lane and in
16:20
16:20 the lane switcher. Maybe I didn’t even
16:22
16:22 realize there were lanes. So [laughter]
16:24
16:24 I like those your words swerving. We’ve
16:26
16:26 seen it as
16:28
16:28 uh mirror, signal, maneuver, but but
16:30
16:30 we’ll take your words. I should have
16:32
16:32 looked at my career highway code a
16:33
16:33 little earlier, I think.
16:34
16:34 >> [laughter]
16:35
16:35 >> So
16:37
16:37 well I think embrace a mess and embrace
16:39
16:39 uncertainty has to be the headline
16:41
16:41 because the most fun and you know the
16:44
16:44 most
16:45
16:45 impact often happens
16:47
16:47 when you get This is where the the the
16:49
16:49 motoring analogy sort of starts to fall
16:51
16:51 down, but where you get collisions
16:53
16:53 >> Yes. [laughter]
16:54
16:54 between people who uh have come from
16:57
16:57 different professional backgrounds,
16:59
16:59 disciplinary backgrounds
17:01
17:01 experience, expertise
17:03
17:03 life backdrop, you know, all of these
17:05
17:05 things the the intersection, the
17:08
17:08 convergence between people who have
17:09
17:09 those those different states is where
17:12
17:12 excitingness happen. And I So So if I
17:14
17:14 kind of trace some of of switches I’ve
17:16
17:16 made, so
17:17
17:17 from
17:18
17:18 um
17:19
17:19 I
17:20
17:20 from biochemistry and and lab-based
17:23
17:23 research into uh science policy. I’ve
17:27
17:27 worked in Parliament, I’ve worked in
17:29
17:29 government briefly, didn’t suit me very
17:31
17:31 well. Um
17:33
17:33 I obviously spent a long time at the
17:34
17:34 Royal Academy of Engineering, but in
17:35
17:35 that time I went up going to motorsport.
17:38
17:38 I’ve done work in international
17:39
17:39 development.
17:41
17:41 >> with the great Lewis Hamilton though,
17:42
17:42 Les.
17:42
17:42 >> no less, lucky me. Well, he’s very good
17:44
17:44 at leaving his lane. [laughter]
17:46
17:46 Very quickly as it turns out.
17:47
17:47 >> a whole ‘nother level of skill. I’m not
17:49
17:49 going to even dare to make a comparison
17:52
17:52 there. Anyway, but in terms of the sorts
17:54
17:54 of different experiences and different
17:56
17:56 domains I’ve gone into construction.
17:57
17:57 >> Yes. Um what I’ve often found is you can
17:60
17:60 make most difference where you are most
18:02
18:02 different.
18:03
18:03 And so if you think about the relative
18:05
18:05 value add you bring,
18:07
18:07 when you have something really
18:08
18:08 distinctive, when you’re um
18:11
18:11 when your hinterland is different to the
18:13
18:13 hinterland of those who sitting around
18:15
18:15 the table with,
18:17
18:17 you can add value almost just through
18:18
18:18 your very presence.
18:20
18:20 But I also find that
18:23
18:23 you
18:25
18:25 So so if you think Okay, on the one
18:27
18:27 hand,
18:29
18:29 being from a different place, you can
18:31
18:31 create something novel. I also find you
18:34
18:34 can have the most fun and you can be the
18:35
18:35 most innovative when you’re working with
18:37
18:37 people who are different from you.
18:39
18:39 >> Right. So
18:40
18:40 please can we have your advice? Somebody
18:43
18:43 inspired by that sentiment
18:47
18:47 and who says And as I cross the
18:49
18:49 threshold, I feel nervous, I feel out of
18:53
18:53 place, I feel quite ignorant because I’m
18:55
18:55 entering into a industry or table or
18:58
18:58 room that I don’t know much about. Um
19:00
19:00 and I feel I might not belong here
19:02
19:02 because this just isn’t my field.
19:05
19:05 We all need to get comfortable with
19:06
19:06 feeling uncomfortable. That is the new
19:08
19:08 normal. If any of us think that we know
19:11
19:11 what’s happening in the world and that
19:12
19:12 we’re pretty confident we’ve got this.
19:14
19:14 We’re just not concentrating. So, I
19:16
19:16 think you’ll just be a little bit ahead
19:18
19:18 of the curve from what’s going to be
19:20
19:20 universal experience. Even the people
19:21
19:21 who have very, very established careers
19:23
19:23 are now looking into the future and
19:24
19:24 thinking, “I cannot be complacent that
19:28
19:28 this lane I’m in right now will continue
19:31
19:31 to take me to a place I want to go or
19:32
19:32 even will continue full stop.”
19:34
19:34 100% and I will um ask a bit more about
19:38
19:38 what’s next on your journey. I can’t
19:40
19:40 stop thinking about dodgems and bumper
19:42
19:42 cars now you’ve mentioned [laughter]
19:43
19:43 collisions, but we’ll we’ll leave it
19:45
19:45 there.
19:45
19:45 >> Sorry. Well, I think it’s important in
19:47
19:47 terms of cross-pollination to say you’re
19:48
19:48 going to be asking some questions soon.
19:50
19:50 You’re going to be, I think we’re
19:52
19:52 allowed to say unless you tell us not
19:53
19:53 to,
19:54
19:54 uh you’re going to be inquiring about
19:56
19:56 the big theme of leadership and that’s
19:57
19:57 what I was intrigued by. Why do you want
19:59
19:59 to explore the future of leadership?
20:01
20:01 Absolutely. So, yes, I’m really excited
20:04
20:04 to be launching a podcast on better
20:07
20:07 leadership in a chaotic world
20:08
20:08 >> Yeah. with Matt Britton who was
20:10
20:10 president of MAF at Google for a good
20:12
20:12 decade and the two of us have decided to
20:16
20:16 enter the the world of podcasting where,
20:18
20:18 you know, we know there’s no shortage of
20:20
20:20 interesting voices, but the reason we’ve
20:22
20:22 decided that we want to spend some time
20:24
20:24 here is because we both feel so
20:27
20:27 passionately about leadership. If
20:29
20:29 there’s a you know, one single change
20:31
20:31 you could make in the world that would
20:32
20:32 improve the quality of the collective
20:34
20:34 experience, it would just be better
20:36
20:36 leadership. And over the time that Matt
20:39
20:39 and I have been in leadership roles
20:40
20:40 between us, we’ve seen this huge arc of
20:43
20:43 change. So, we’ve gone from
20:46
20:46 alpha leadership that’s rooted in
20:48
20:48 self-confidence and certainty to
20:52
20:52 leadership that is much more
20:55
20:55 So, we’ve gone from alpha leadership
20:57
20:57 that is rooted in self-certainty to
21:00
21:00 empowering leadership which is rooted in
21:04
21:04 humility. We’ve gone from directive
21:07
21:07 people who tell us that’s a flag on the
21:09
21:09 hill, off we go, march in line through
21:12
21:12 to engaging leadership where you have to
21:15
21:15 learn your leadership mandate on a daily
21:17
21:17 basis.
21:18
21:18 >> Yes.
21:18
21:18 And we’ve moved from a lead- leadership
21:22
21:22 era which is based in
21:26
21:26 kind of confidence about what the future
21:29
21:29 might hold. We feel we can control it.
21:31
21:31 We feel it we can deliver it.
21:33
21:33 To the obsession of all leaders now
21:36
21:36 being how you manage uncertainty and how
21:38
21:38 you can be truly adaptable and flexible.
21:41
21:41 And that incredible change curve is not
21:44
21:44 done. It’s just getting going. And in
21:47
21:47 certain worlds, um how I think
21:49
21:49 that thought of changing your mind is so
21:51
21:51 penalized.
21:52
21:52 I’m thinking of
21:53
21:53 >> politics being the obvious one and I
21:55
21:55 spent some time in Parliament and it
21:57
21:57 made me much more empathetic to what it
21:59
21:59 feels like to be
22:00
22:00 uh in the political hot seat. But there
22:03
22:03 is no question that we are now in an era
22:04
22:04 where
22:05
22:05 uh
22:06
22:06 the
22:07
22:07 the drivers of politics, the incentive
22:09
22:09 system is not producing decisions that
22:12
22:12 are in the long-term good
22:14
22:14 of the nation or the world.
22:16
22:16 >> Right. And we have to take some
22:17
22:17 collective responsibility for that.
22:18
22:18 Right. I’m pleased we’ve got another
22:20
22:20 U-turn driving analogy and that’s good
22:22
22:22 as well in the in the back [laughter] of
22:23
22:23 my mind. Uh so so so time is um slightly
22:26
22:26 against us. One one thing that you have
22:28
22:28 inspired me to um reflect on is
22:31
22:31 clearly we want the world to have better
22:32
22:32 leaders as you’ve said. So if we think
22:34
22:34 about um future leaders, if we were
22:37
22:37 putting together a program Mhm. you know
22:40
22:40 over the next couple of years that
22:42
22:42 really increased the odds of our next
22:44
22:44 generation leaders being even better
22:47
22:47 equipped. If we’re purely brainstorming
22:48
22:48 just amongst, you know, as friends here
22:51
22:51 what do you put into that program? What
22:52
22:52 has to be embedded in there? And feel
22:54
22:54 free to point a light at anywhere you
22:56
22:56 feel that’s already starting to show up.
22:58
22:58 >> Mhm.
22:59
22:59 Well, so so part of the rationale for um
23:01
23:01 um what we don’t know, the podcast that
23:03
23:03 we’re creating is that
23:04
23:04 we want to open up access to the
23:06
23:06 leadership table. So what happens is
23:09
23:09 that the more senior you get, the more
23:10
23:10 access you get to help and support and
23:12
23:12 networks that are so powerful for
23:15
23:15 supporting on your leadership journey.
23:16
23:16 What we need is for people to have
23:18
23:18 access to those sorts of
23:19
23:19 networks and peer conversations at a
23:21
23:21 much earlier stage. Otherwise, we’re
23:24
23:24 hardwiring conservatism into the system.
23:27
23:27 So I think we need to disrupt the way
23:29
23:29 that we actually
23:31
23:31 say you’re ready for leadership. We need
23:34
23:34 to disrupt the way we select leaders.
23:35
23:35 The gatekeepers need to go from an
23:38
23:38 analog process to a digital one. And I
23:40
23:40 don’t mean that in the sense of take the
23:42
23:42 human out of the loop at all. I mean
23:44
23:44 really selecting for people that have
23:46
23:46 the courage,
23:48
23:48 the integrity, the humanity that we need
23:51
23:51 from the people who are going to be
23:54
23:54 taking us into this next chapter
23:57
23:57 of
23:58
23:58 development and growth
24:00
24:00 and hopefully progress
24:02
24:02 in a world that is as complex,
24:05
24:05 as dynamic, and as challenging as it has
24:07
24:07 ever been. And so I think starting with
24:10
24:10 helping people
24:12
24:12 identify what is their leadership
24:14
24:14 personality, what is it they bring to
24:15
24:15 the table as leaders,
24:17
24:17 what is it they will never compromise
24:18
24:18 on, what is their what is the scale of
24:21
24:21 their ambition for the future,
24:23
24:23 what are what are the bits that are not
24:26
24:26 yet complete in their leadership
24:28
24:28 portfolio because none of us are born
24:30
24:30 into this perfectly shaped. This is not
24:33
24:33 about cookie-cutter leadership. Right.
24:34
24:34 So so on that journey, quick another
24:36
24:36 piece of advice, please, for somebody
24:38
24:38 listening who says, “Look, I am now very
24:41
24:41 inclined to seek out my peers but in
24:43
24:43 completely different industries,
24:44
24:44 completely different lanes, if you
24:46
24:46 like.” Any any practical advice for them
24:48
24:48 because very often they will be hanging
24:49
24:49 around pretty much the same people in a
24:51
24:51 lot of the gatherings they’re going to.
24:53
24:53 So I could just say
24:55
24:55 go go ping Ollie on LinkedIn because
24:57
24:57 Ollie is one of the most networked and
24:59
24:59 connected people I have ever met. But
25:01
25:01 that would be a bit unfair on you,
25:02
25:02 Ollie. So, let’s sort of extrapolate
25:04
25:04 from there.
25:05
25:05 >> And and join us at Future Forum as well,
25:07
25:07 of course. Yeah, but please carry on.
25:09
25:09 >> the fact you’re listening to this
25:09
25:09 podcast means that you are already
25:11
25:11 thinking about the right things. Um
25:14
25:14 actually, I think going to events, and I
25:16
25:16 would say in-person events, are actually
25:20
25:20 such an important way of broadening out
25:23
25:23 your horizon. Yes, you’ll hear some
25:24
25:24 interesting speakers, but the most
25:26
25:26 important thing is go talk to people. I
25:28
25:28 used to have a rule of thumb.
25:29
25:29 Every event I went to I had to talk to
25:31
25:31 three people I didn’t know. Love that.
25:32
25:32 >> And, you know, I would not let myself
25:34
25:34 off the hook. Um
25:36
25:36 I would also try and say ask one
25:38
25:38 question, because then people might come
25:40
25:40 up to you afterwards and start a
25:41
25:41 conversation with you. So, it kind of,
25:43
25:43 you know, lowers the barrier to having
25:45
25:45 to
25:45
25:45 find something to talk to people about.
25:48
25:48 Um but get out and about. LinkedIn and
25:50
25:50 other platforms are available, but I do
25:52
25:52 think LinkedIn is the best place for
25:54
25:54 also seeing what other people are doing.
25:56
25:56 You can create content that creates
25:59
25:59 engagement. I meet lots of people in
26:00
26:00 person who I have met on LinkedIn. And
26:03
26:03 what I think is
26:05
26:05 one of the most beautiful and under
26:07
26:07 talked about things is there is so much
26:10
26:10 goodwill. People want to help each
26:11
26:11 other. Good people committed to making
26:14
26:14 the future better than it might
26:16
26:16 otherwise be are always happy to give
26:18
26:18 each other a helping hand.
26:19
26:19 >> Yeah. And are always interested in
26:21
26:21 making meeting other people with
26:23
26:23 interesting things to say. So,
26:24
26:24 personally, I think it’s that take the
26:27
26:27 initiative that’s just the whole thing,
26:28
26:28 the activation energy.
26:29
26:29 >> It’s it’s such it’s such good advice. I
26:31
26:31 I totally agree with that. Um what one
26:33
26:33 example from when particularly when you
26:35
26:35 were leading um
26:36
26:36 um in in your previous um CEO role, um
26:40
26:40 was there an example of how you took
26:42
26:42 inspiration from another lane, from
26:43
26:43 another sector in particular?
26:45
26:45 How were you doing that? I did it all
26:48
26:48 the time. So, if I try and pick out one
26:51
26:51 example, I mean, working with motorsport
26:54
26:54 was just fascinating. So, I I didn’t
26:57
26:57 ever plan to get involved
26:58
26:58 [clears throat] with motorsport. I’m
26:59
26:59 going to confess I had to watch all
27:01
27:01 available seasons of Drive to Survive
27:02
27:02 before feeling equipped to go and
27:04
27:04 co-chair Lewis Hamilton’s commission,
27:06
27:06 which was on improving representation of
27:08
27:08 black people in UK motorsport.
27:10
27:10 But, my gosh, the way they work, the
27:13
27:13 singularity of their focus, and
27:16
27:16 what achieving the almost superhuman
27:21
27:21 feats that they achieve involves
27:24
27:24 is all about great teamwork. So,
27:28
27:28 creating alignment of all the human
27:30
27:30 vectors in organization, so everybody is
27:32
27:32 focused on that common target. That’s
27:34
27:34 something I come back to again and again
27:36
27:36 as a leader. So, give us a just a tiny
27:38
27:38 bit more on that, because you would have
27:39
27:39 worked with some amazing teams in in in
27:42
27:42 bioscience and engineering. And I’m
27:44
27:44 assured leadership teamwork thread goes
27:46
27:46 through those. Is there anything you
27:48
27:48 notice differently in that motorsport
27:50
27:50 environment? You know, I thought I have
27:51
27:51 not seen that before. I think it’s it’s
27:53
27:53 takes it to an extreme. So, there is no
27:55
27:55 pure focus in terms of goal than does it
27:58
27:58 make the car go faster.
27:60
27:60 Uh at the next race.
28:02
28:02 And [clears throat] so,
28:04
28:04 the extent to which, for example,
28:07
28:07 the drivers are
28:09
28:09 considered as a sort of system to
28:10
28:10 optimize from every single angle, from
28:12
28:12 their sleep to their
28:14
28:14 mental health to their nutrition,
28:18
28:18 through to the way in which
28:21
28:21 everybody in that team, so if you think
28:23
28:23 about
28:24
28:24 >> [snorts]
28:24
28:24 >> the pit lane experience, and when you
28:27
28:27 have to, you know, have this
28:28
28:28 extraordinary
28:29
28:29 moment where
28:31
28:31 all these people come together to change
28:33
28:33 the tires at breakneck speed.
28:35
28:35 That is the orchestration of teamwork at
28:37
28:37 a world-class level. So, I don’t think
28:40
28:40 it’s necessarily that the principles are
28:42
28:42 different, but the purity and the
28:45
28:45 extent to which people take it to the
28:48
28:48 extreme. Unlock that last micro drop of
28:52
28:52 potential that I’ve never seen before.
28:54
28:54 And honestly, the human behaviors in
28:56
28:56 some of the teams in science, for
28:57
28:57 example, in the in research,
28:59
28:59 are far more focused around individual
29:02
29:02 success
29:03
29:03 than they are in the context of
29:05
29:05 motorsport where individual success
29:07
29:07 means nothing without team success.
29:08
29:08 Yeah.
29:09
29:09 Incredibly,
29:11
29:11 uh
29:11
29:11 it’s a it’s an amazing example. Does it
29:13
29:13 make the car go faster? And the idea
29:15
29:15 that there are so many contributing
29:17
29:17 factors to that, many of which are not
29:19
29:19 uh on the track at all. Exactly. Uh
29:21
29:21 really interesting. Um well, um
29:24
29:24 time is against us here. We are racing
29:25
29:25 towards the checkered flag.
29:27
29:27 >> [laughter]
29:27
29:27 >> Uh hold it. I haven’t got I could do one
29:28
29:28 more one more pop quiz. Go for it cuz I
29:31
29:31 was just quite excited to ask you them
29:33
29:33 really. One more You pick this time.
29:35
29:35 I’ll pick. Okay.
29:36
29:36 >> Yeah.
29:37
29:37 Number 10.
29:39
29:39 What are we And speaking of number 10,
29:41
29:41 any interest in politics? Oh gosh.
29:43
29:43 Absolutely not. Thank you for asking.
29:45
29:45 >> Right. That was quick fire. Uh what are
29:47
29:47 we going to wish we’d started talking so
29:50
29:50 as rather
29:51
29:51 what are we going to wish we’d started
29:52
29:52 taking seriously 10 years earlier?
29:57
29:57 Trouble with that question, Ollie, is
29:59
29:59 that
30:01
30:01 there’s a very unequal distribution of
30:03
30:03 what people are taking seriously.
30:04
30:04 >> Mhm. So, I think And we we is a pretty
30:07
30:07 big word there.
30:08
30:08 >> Health and planet.
30:09
30:09 >> Yeah. Which I think that
30:11
30:11 they’re definitely on people’s agenda. I
30:13
30:13 mean, many of us
30:15
30:15 care deeply about these things, but
30:16
30:16 collectively we’ve not done a good job
30:18
30:18 of converting that, you know, individual
30:21
30:21 care
30:22
30:22 into meaningful progress. So, if you
30:24
30:24 look at health, such unequal progress in
30:26
30:26 terms of
30:28
30:28 amazing advances in
30:31
30:31 at the sort of the most technologically
30:33
30:33 advanced end of the spectrum, and yet
30:34
30:34 some fundamental problems about basic
30:36
30:36 nutrition and actually how to feed
30:38
30:38 ourselves well, and the era of
30:40
30:40 personalized medicine has really not
30:42
30:42 materialized except for those very, very
30:44
30:44 isolated examples where you might have a
30:46
30:46 genetic propensity to a you know,
30:48
30:48 particular cancer or something like that
30:49
30:49 and that’s important for those people
30:51
30:51 who are impacted but not systemically
30:52
30:52 impactful.
30:54
30:54 And then I think in the
30:56
30:56 in terms of the planet, we’ve done a
30:57
30:57 great job of
30:59
30:59 mobilizing in a kind of rhetorical
31:02
31:02 sense,
31:03
31:03 but if you look at the actual concrete
31:05
31:05 evidence, we’re going backwards as fast
31:08
31:08 as we’re going forwards.
31:09
31:09 >> Yeah.
31:10
31:10 And it’s fascinating, isn’t it? How
31:11
31:11 often
31:12
31:12 think of this phrase planetary health,
31:14
31:14 those two things health and planet show
31:16
31:16 up. So the one health concept is is is
31:18
31:18 very apt and it’s a systems approach cuz
31:20
31:20 you take it back to where we started.
31:22
31:22 Well, and and and there’s also a bridge
31:23
31:23 there for certain things like air
31:25
31:25 quality that draw in the two that
31:26
31:26 hopefully might focus on it. Well, at
31:28
31:28 least my podcast turned out to be as
31:29
31:29 light-hearted as I hoped.
31:31
31:31 >> [laughter]
31:31
31:31 >> Sorry. May maybe it will have to be
31:33
31:33 biscuit related next time. No, no, no.
31:35
31:35 The future is a serious matter, Ollie.
31:37
31:37 >> Well, quite I couldn’t agree more.
31:39
31:39 Um now we are um coming to the end of
31:41
31:41 our time together. So
31:44
31:44 we have a question
31:45
31:45 uh at tomorrow
31:47
31:47 um and the concept new remember time
31:50
31:50 capsule Yes, of course. I’m thinking
31:52
31:52 Blue Peter.
31:54
31:54 Absolutely right.
31:56
31:56 Uh Blue Peter, but where we would
31:57
31:57 capture a series of objects. But here we
31:59
31:59 think about a voice memo or a memo uh to
32:02
32:02 the future. So um
32:05
32:05 Dr. Hart and Selam, I would like you or
32:06
32:06 we would like you
32:08
32:08 uh to share a short voice memo to the
32:11
32:11 future. And it could be to a future
32:14
32:14 engineer. It could be to a future
32:16
32:16 leader. It could be to a version of your
32:18
32:18 future self. So our question is um what
32:22
32:22 is your memo to the future?
32:25
32:25 My memo to the future is for
32:28
32:28 a new generation of leaders.
32:30
32:30 Never underestimate the power you have
32:34
32:34 to contribute to shaping a better
32:36
32:36 future.
32:37
32:37 We have
32:38
32:38 as much power as we believe we have.
32:41
32:41 And if we want to have the future that
32:43
32:43 we desire and not the one we deserve
32:46
32:46 we all need to own the power that we
32:48
32:48 have.
32:51
32:51 Well, Dr. Autumn Slim
32:53
32:53 that was
32:54
32:54 phenomenal voice memo. And more broadly,
32:56
32:56 I just want to say personally how much
32:57
32:57 I’ve enjoyed this conversation. Thank
32:59
32:59 you for joining us on Tomorrow. It’s
33:00
33:00 been my absolute pleasure and you’re
33:02
33:02 doing such an important thing. I really
33:04
33:04 look forward to seeing the impact that
33:06
33:06 it has. Well, over the next weeks,
33:09
33:09 months and years, our final question,
33:11
33:11 can we count you in as part of Future
33:13
33:13 Forum? Of course you can. You know the
33:15
33:15 answer to that, Ollie. Why would I be
33:16
33:16 here otherwise? Excellent. Dr. Autumn
33:18
33:18 Slim, thank you for being with us. Uh
33:21
33:21 and thank you for tuning in. We are so
33:24
33:24 grateful to you for tuning into this
33:26
33:26 conversation and especially for sharing
33:28
33:28 it with anyone you think needs to hear
33:31
33:31 it. Uh it’s Tomorrow, it’s the Future
33:34
33:34 Forum podcast. I’ve been Ollie Barrett,
33:36
33:36 uh your host. Until next time, goodbye.
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