00:00 We go forward a generation, say to 2050,
00:03
00:03 and we’re just walking down a street,
00:04
00:04 the first thing that we notice that’s
00:06
00:06 different between now and then is that
00:08
00:08 we see and we hear children. I’ve got
00:10
00:10 something to contribute. I want to
00:12
00:12 contribute. I want to use the influence
00:15
00:15 that I’ve got and the ideas, the
00:16
00:16 networks that I’ve got, the
00:18
00:18 opportunities, the wealth, all of those
00:20
00:20 things together to actually nudge the
00:22
00:22 world to be slightly better. Children
00:24
00:24 have been put at the background of
00:26
00:26 policy, of society. We over manage their
00:30
00:30 childhoods. We over account for risk and
00:32
00:32 and take risk out of their day-to-day
00:34
00:34 lives. And I thought, can I can I bring
00:37
00:37 together a challenge that says,
00:40
00:40 what should success look like for a
00:42
00:42 country, for a nation?
00:44
00:44 And my view is it’s how well each of its
00:47
00:47 children can thrive. If Britain became
00:49
00:49 the best place in the world to grow up,
00:52
00:52 what’s something that the rest of the
00:53
00:53 world would start to notice? Hello and
00:56
00:56 welcome to Tomorrow, the Future Forum
00:59
00:59 podcast. I’m Ollie Barrett, and today I
01:02
01:02 am joined by Paul Lindley. He’s the
01:05
01:05 founder of Ella’s Kitchen. He’s the
01:07
01:07 Chancellor of Reading University. He
01:09
01:09 sits on the board of Sesame Workshop,
01:11
01:11 the creator of Sesame Street. He’s also
01:15
01:15 the author of a couple of books,
01:16
01:16 including Raising the Nation.
01:19
01:19 He’s recently chaired the Play
01:21
01:21 Commission, and so he’s moved between
01:23
01:23 business, policy, campaigning with one
01:26
01:26 central question always very close to
01:28
01:28 his mind. How do we build a country
01:31
01:31 which puts children and young people
01:33
01:33 right at its center? Paul Lindley,
01:37
01:37 welcome to Tomorrow.
01:37
01:37 >> Thank you for inviting me, Ollie. It’s
01:39
01:39 good to see you, Paul. Now,
01:41
01:41 we’re here to talk about the future. So,
01:43
01:43 before we really get started, paint us a
01:45
01:45 picture. Give us a glimpse of the
01:47
01:47 future. What do we see? What do you hope
01:51
01:51 we’ll see?
01:51
01:51 >> I think if you can imagine a future, it
01:53
01:53 is possible. So, let’s start with that.
01:56
01:56 Uh being an idealist, my ideal is if we
01:58
01:58 go forward a generation, say to 2050,
02:00
02:00 and we’re just walking down a street,
02:02
02:02 the first thing that we notice that’s
02:03
02:03 different between now and then is that
02:05
02:05 we see and we hear children. They’re
02:08
02:08 just They’re just part of the community.
02:10
02:10 They’re part of society like they’re not
02:13
02:13 really now. And they They’re there.
02:15
02:15 They’re doing that because they’ve got
02:16
02:16 more rights than they have now. They’ve
02:18
02:18 got access to more public spaces than
02:20
02:20 they have right now as they should have.
02:22
02:22 And they’ve got more time to be children
02:24
02:24 rather than shuttled off being efficient
02:26
02:26 to be a mini adult too early.
02:28
02:28 >> I love that. So, there’s lots to get
02:30
02:30 into and unpack there. If we step back
02:32
02:32 there,
02:33
02:33 you started what was now and was, as you
02:36
02:36 led it, the country’s biggest baby food
02:38
02:38 company. So, you’ve worked in business.
02:40
02:40 Uh, you’ve been a campaigner. You’ve
02:42
02:42 worked in politics. You’re an advisor to
02:43
02:43 the Board of Trade.
02:46
02:46 To what extent do you think there’s a
02:47
02:47 red thread that’s connected all of the
02:49
02:49 things you’ve done?
02:51
02:51 I think it is that idealism of we can do
02:54
02:54 better. That’s That’s what gets me up
02:56
02:56 every morning. My personal belief that I
02:59
02:59 can do better. Even if I’ve had the best
03:00
03:00 day I’ve ever had yesterday, I think I
03:02
03:02 can do better today and even better
03:04
03:04 tomorrow. I think that’s is a
03:05
03:05 fundamental thing of how we’ve evolved,
03:08
03:08 why you and I and our
03:11
03:11 citizens around us are the people that
03:12
03:12 are here today, not others, because our
03:14
03:14 ancestors are have evolved to have that
03:16
03:16 belief that they have hope that tomorrow
03:19
03:19 can be better than yesterday and the
03:21
03:21 future is brighter than the past.
03:23
03:23 >> Right. And how we support that
03:26
03:26 journey, we can come to, but let me just
03:28
03:28 notice though,
03:29
03:29 some entrepreneurs build a business,
03:31
03:31 sell a business as you did, and then
03:33
03:33 basically chill out, rest on their
03:36
03:36 laurels. So, I’m trying to get to the
03:37
03:37 bottom then of what keeps you going,
03:39
03:39 what keeps that hunger burning? A A
03:42
03:42 passion for change and that belief as I
03:44
03:44 just said that tomorrow can be better
03:46
03:46 than yesterday because I can be a better
03:47
03:47 person and I can use all the privileges
03:50
03:50 that I know that I’ve had I have
03:53
03:53 some earned, some because I put myself
03:55
03:55 in the arena, but some just come to me
03:58
03:58 and I should be thank I am thankful for
03:60
03:60 that and I should use that in a way that
04:02
04:02 can help others. So, the idea that I
04:05
04:05 could go off and play golf every single
04:07
04:07 day, I would enjoy for a week and then I
04:09
04:09 would get bored. I’ve got something to
04:11
04:11 contribute. I want to contribute. I want
04:14
04:14 to use the influence that I’ve got and
04:15
04:15 the ideas, the networks that I’ve got,
04:18
04:18 the opportunities, the wealth, all of
04:20
04:20 those things together to actually nudge
04:22
04:22 the world to be slightly better. Right.
04:25
04:25 Now, you continue to play a role in the
04:27
04:27 broadcasting world in the sense that
04:29
04:29 you’re on the board of Sesame Workshop.
04:31
04:31 If we go back further onto your
04:34
04:34 timeline, you were at Nickelodeon. You
04:36
04:36 were running a part of Nickelodeon in
04:37
04:37 the UK. So, what was it that made you
04:40
04:40 think, “Okay, kids telly here, but
04:42
04:42 actually
04:43
04:43 food, nutrition.” There must have been a
04:45
04:45 a a light bulb moment.
04:46
04:46 >> Well, the theme that goes through that
04:49
04:49 is, I guess, started with my learning
04:51
04:51 from Nickelodeon. I went into
04:52
04:52 Nickelodeon as a finance guy. I was a
04:54
04:54 chartered accountant. I became a um
04:56
04:56 financial controller and kind of over 10
04:58
04:58 years worked my way up to be the deputy
05:00
05:00 managing director. And part of that
05:01
05:01 journey, I looked after the comms, the
05:04
05:04 marketing team, the branding team.
05:06
05:06 And I began to see how important
05:08
05:08 communication is in getting things
05:11
05:11 changed and in um changing behaviors.
05:14
05:14 It’s not just a cost as a my little
05:16
05:16 accountant would have thought. It’s an
05:17
05:17 investment. And uh so, how Nickelodeon
05:21
05:21 positioned itself to be for by and with
05:25
05:25 children, not just done to them, I I
05:29
05:29 that light bulb went off in that and I
05:30
05:30 thought, “That’s genius.” Um my time at
05:32
05:32 Nickelodeon also saw us getting a lot of
05:34
05:34 criticism um as television over, “Well,
05:37
05:37 kids are less healthy today because
05:39
05:39 they’re watching bad ads. They’re not
05:40
05:40 going outside and playing because
05:41
05:41 they’re watching television.” We were
05:42
05:42 trying to address that. But it That’s
05:44
05:44 another little light bulb that went up
05:45
05:45 up in my mind. So, and at the same time
05:48
05:48 I had Ella, my daughter. So, having real
05:51
05:51 life experience of a toddler,
05:53
05:53 um having worked in a business that put
05:55
05:55 kids first genuinely,
05:57
05:57 um and being able to see how um if they
06:01
06:01 feel empowered, they change their their
06:03
06:03 their behavior changes, I brought them
06:05
06:05 together um to try and solve one of our
06:08
06:08 problems, which was that our kids aren’t
06:10
06:10 eating good enough food. Right. So, that
06:12
06:12 way of working, that way of thinking, of
06:14
06:14 putting children right in the center of
06:17
06:17 your thinking, clearly then goes through
06:19
06:19 to the creation and the success of
06:20
06:20 Ella’s Kitchen. It also sits at the core
06:23
06:23 of Raising the Nation. Yeah. Tell us a
06:24
06:24 bit more about that, cuz I want to
06:26
06:26 unpack it. This is about you’re
06:28
06:28 marshaling the ingredients, but
06:30
06:30 >> Yeah. this is about multiple
06:31
06:31 contributors. I’ve worked for 30 35
06:33
06:33 years with, on, and around children and
06:36
06:36 their issues and their challenges.
06:38
06:38 And um after selling Ella’s Kitchen, I
06:41
06:41 sort of thought, “How can I use on my
06:43
06:43 the entrepreneurial skills that I have
06:45
06:45 to help children broadly?” I I I thought
06:47
06:47 there’s something more in me. How can I
06:49
06:49 How can I bring those things together to
06:52
06:52 bring ideas to the forefront that could
06:54
06:54 actually affect change? I suppose when I
06:55
06:55 started those 30 years, um the the going
06:58
06:58 to my first interview at Nickelodeon
07:01
07:01 um in the early ’90s um was at the same
07:04
07:04 time I was preparing and I was thinking
07:06
07:06 about children for the first time I
07:07
07:07 suppose in a professional capacity.
07:10
07:10 And um
07:11
07:11 politically what was happening, South
07:12
07:12 Africa had just become democratic and
07:15
07:15 Nelson Mandela was the new president.
07:17
07:17 And at the exact moment I was
07:19
07:19 revising and planning my my interview,
07:22
07:22 he gave two speeches within a couple of
07:24
07:24 weeks of each other um about how he saw
07:26
07:26 the future of South Africa and how
07:27
07:27 children were at the very heart of that.
07:29
07:29 And it so inspired me, it still does.
07:31
07:31 One of them, he spoke about how um
07:34
07:34 the how
07:36
07:36 a nation treats its children reveals its
07:39
07:39 soul.
07:40
07:40 Um and how he was determined that South
07:43
07:43 Africa’s soul would be children-centric
07:46
07:46 and the future of South Africa was on
07:48
07:48 young people. And I thought, that’s it.
07:50
07:50 That’s it. I’m 20-something now. I’ve
07:52
07:52 got my career. This is where I’m going
07:53
07:53 to go. And I went to Nick Clegg and I
07:54
07:54 said, I said, “Let’s get children on the
07:55
07:55 agenda.” And I’ve done other things all
07:57
07:57 designed with that aspiration behind it.
07:60
07:60 You know, a society’s soul is revealed
08:02
08:02 by how it treats its children. In the
08:04
08:04 ’90s, you know,
08:06
08:06 the Blair government came along with
08:07
08:07 education, education, education. It
08:09
08:09 brought Sure Start. It brought
08:12
08:12 a a million children out of poverty.
08:15
08:15 Really, kids at the center of politics
08:17
08:17 and policy.
08:18
08:18 And, um, you know, it looked all bright.
08:21
08:21 But then, from about 2010,
08:25
08:25 the children have been put at the
08:26
08:26 background of policy, of society. We
08:30
08:30 over-manage their childhoods. We
08:32
08:32 over-account for risk and and take risk
08:35
08:35 out of their day-to-day lives. We don’t
08:37
08:37 give them agency to make any decisions
08:39
08:39 about themselves relative to previous
08:40
08:40 generations of children. And I see all
08:42
08:42 this go backwards. So, I’m thinking,
08:44
08:44 I’ve got this experience for these 30
08:45
08:45 years. I know a network of a million
08:48
08:48 people. You were one of the very kind
08:49
08:49 people to write an essay, um, in my
08:51
08:51 book. Um, but I and I thought, can I can
08:54
08:54 I bring together a challenge that says,
08:58
08:58 “What should success look like for for a
08:60
09:00 country? For a nation?”
09:02
09:02 And my view is it’s how well each of its
09:05
09:05 children can thrive.
09:06
09:06 >> So, so let’s unpack some of those
09:08
09:08 examples. Let’s put to one side, you’re
09:10
09:10 very gracious there, the fact that
09:11
09:11 turning on the subtitles can boost
09:13
09:13 children’s literacy. Good tick. Great
09:15
09:15 idea.
09:15
09:15 >> What else? What else is in there? Help
09:17
09:17 us bring it to life.
09:18
09:18 >> The The book is, um,
09:20
09:20 two years of research and 30 years of
09:22
09:22 experience for me and my networks and
09:24
09:24 ideas and stuff. But But it also has 38,
09:26
09:26 um, essays in the book and another 30 on
09:29
09:29 the website, um, from experts of who
09:32
09:32 maybe lived experience or maybe academic
09:34
09:34 or or political experience of things
09:37
09:37 that those individuals think can change
09:39
09:39 to improve children’s lives and they
09:40
09:40 articulate why. Um um
09:44
09:44 uh but there’s some big ideas out there.
09:45
09:45 So, a couple, let me just give you a
09:47
09:47 couple. One from uh the youngest person
09:50
09:50 that uh contributed with an essay. She
09:52
09:52 was uh 16 years old at the time. She’d
09:55
09:55 lived in in care. She’d got care
09:56
09:56 experience um since she before she was a
09:59
09:59 teenager.
10:00
10:00 Um and her whole point was, you know,
10:03
10:03 “I’ve lived in care
10:05
10:05 the with government parents, she calls
10:07
10:07 them, which you know, the the the state
10:10
10:10 has the responsibility of a parent.
10:12
10:12 But everybody that she interacted with
10:15
10:15 prioritized
10:16
10:16 a risk assessment for their jobs, for
10:19
10:19 their uh for the for the state over the
10:21
10:21 well-being of that child. So, it wasn’t
10:23
10:23 like a parent which would always look
10:24
10:24 after the well-being of the child. It
10:26
10:26 was constant paid people interacting
10:28
10:28 with her with a risk assessment, tick
10:30
10:30 tick tick, no tick. So, she went to uh
10:33
10:33 school,
10:34
10:34 where kids after school went to each
10:36
10:36 other’s homes for tea, she never went to
10:38
10:38 anyone’s home because someone will have
10:40
10:40 ticked, “Oh no, there’s a brother or the
10:42
10:42 brother might have a friend, etc.” She
10:44
10:44 never had a hug throughout her
10:46
10:46 childhood. So, she’s not a she she’s
10:49
10:49 feels emotionally disconnected
10:51
10:51 sometimes. So, she’s got ideas of how um
10:55
10:55 risk can be better managed with more
10:58
10:58 real-life experience being put in from
10:59
10:59 the people in care into that system. And
11:02
11:02 she’s got a whole idea um around the
11:03
11:03 care system. At the other end of the
11:05
11:05 scale, I guess, is the um professor of
11:07
11:07 politics, the head professor of politics
11:09
11:09 at Cambridge University, David Runciman.
11:12
11:12 Um who, you know, is hugely credible for
11:14
11:14 political theory. His essay for me is
11:18
11:18 that 6-year-olds should vote. And
11:20
11:20 everyone over than 6-year-old. And you
11:22
11:22 think about it at the start with you
11:23
11:23 think, “Oh, okay.” And then he goes into
11:25
11:25 it and, you know, if a 90-year-old
11:28
11:28 person with dementia can vote, why can’t
11:30
11:30 a 6-year-old with a whole life ahead of
11:32
11:32 them with some experience around, I
11:34
11:34 don’t know, the environment or
11:36
11:36 10-year-old might have opinions on how
11:39
11:39 school budgets should be spent much more
11:41
11:41 astute than
11:42
11:42 a trustee
11:45
11:45 of the school.
11:46
11:46 And you know, if there’s worry about,
11:48
11:48 well, they’re going to be coerced into
11:50
11:50 voting a certain way, well, all of us
11:51
11:51 may be. Um, but you know, they don’t
11:54
11:54 have to do the democracy. We We We live
11:57
11:57 in a country that has representative
11:59
11:59 democracy. They have to express a
12:00
12:00 preference once every years to who they
12:03
12:03 might like to represent them like the
12:05
12:05 rest of us do. And I, you know, having
12:07
12:07 read his essay, I think, you know, if
12:09
12:09 20% of our citizens are children, 100%
12:12
12:12 of our future is what those children
12:15
12:15 become and and and as well as the 20% of
12:18
12:18 who they are now.
12:19
12:19 They should be encouraged to become the
12:22
12:22 full person that they can be and they
12:23
12:23 should enjoy and prosper and thrive in
12:26
12:26 every part of their life including their
12:28
12:28 childhoods. And in a world where there
12:31
12:31 are increasingly more older people and
12:33
12:33 retired people and less younger people
12:36
12:36 without their voice,
12:37
12:37 the budgets, the focus will go to the
12:40
12:40 older people and we are screwed as a
12:42
12:42 country if we rely or we disregard
12:47
12:47 youth, entrepreneurship, risk-taking,
12:50
12:50 ideas, innovation, imagination, all
12:53
12:53 those things that young societies bring.
12:55
12:55 Right. So, let’s take this off
12:57
12:57 Let’s look at this from a couple of
12:58
12:58 different angles. Firstly, saying,
13:00
13:00 >> [snorts]
13:01
13:01 >> well, Paul, the challenge is, you know,
13:03
13:03 certain government departments are very
13:05
13:05 slow-moving for good reason and the
13:08
13:08 change can be incremental. So, are there
13:10
13:10 examples of different sectors
13:13
13:13 where you’ve seen leaps being made
13:15
13:15 rather than just small steps? You know,
13:18
13:18 the system of our government hasn’t
13:20
13:20 changed for many, many years, actually
13:22
13:22 the civil service and how it’s
13:24
13:24 structured. And obviously our world has
13:26
13:26 moved on tremendously.
13:28
13:28 Um and most problems, most challenges
13:31
13:31 for a society are not down to one cause
13:34
13:34 in one that one department can can
13:36
13:36 solve. It’s multifaceted. Uh yet our
13:39
13:39 government works in silos. Um so
13:44
13:44 any problem, you will need more than one
13:46
13:46 minister, one more the set of civil
13:48
13:48 servants coming down to get the
13:50
13:50 long-term sustainable solution.
13:52
13:52 On top of that, we don’t have a
13:54
13:54 government representative at the top
13:56
13:56 table at the cabinet whose primary
13:58
13:58 responsibility is for that 20% of our
14:00
14:00 population, children, who have no
14:02
14:02 democratic vote. So, they’re not
14:04
14:04 represented by MPs because they didn’t
14:07
14:07 vote for those MPs so they weren’t
14:08
14:08 allowed to. So, we have double designed
14:11
14:11 out of democracy their their voice.
14:14
14:14 And I think there should be a minister
14:16
14:16 for children at the uh at the cabinet
14:19
14:19 table whose primary responsibility is to
14:22
14:22 say what does this policy do for
14:24
14:24 children. Policies to do with children,
14:26
14:26 obviously, but other policies that have
14:28
14:28 nothing to do with children.
14:29
14:29 >> other departments. Okay, so I’m going to
14:31
14:31 I’m going to come back there on this
14:32
14:32 question around um is it in the business
14:35
14:35 world? Is it in the charity sector where
14:37
14:37 you say, “Look, whilst our departments
14:40
14:40 catch up, here are organizations that
14:42
14:42 really do put children at the center,
14:44
14:44 not just of their services or products,
14:47
14:47 but also in terms of how those are
14:48
14:48 designed, how they’re conceived. Who
14:50
14:50 does that well?”
14:50
14:50 >> So, that that are so many countries and
14:53
14:53 so many companies who um
14:57
14:57 you know, if you look to maternity and
14:58
14:58 paternity uh
15:01
15:01 uh
15:01
15:01 policies, if you look to part-time and
15:05
15:05 full-time working from home, all of
15:06
15:06 those sort of things that
15:08
15:08 are progressive but are happening as
15:10
15:10 well as being progressive in
15:13
15:13 in societies that maybe
15:15
15:15 are not just progressive. Um
15:18
15:18 those those all bring about
15:21
15:21 a balance and a
15:24
15:24 between uh uh uh um
15:26
15:26 uh between the different aspects of each
15:28
15:28 of our lives. And I think what they they
15:30
15:30 speak to is the idea that economic
15:34
15:34 prosperity is on one side of an equation
15:37
15:37 and social harmony, social advancement,
15:41
15:41 cultural comfort is on the other side of
15:44
15:44 the equation. Those things can be on and
15:46
15:46 should be on the same side. They enhance
15:48
15:48 each other. So,
15:51
15:51 you know, a a company that allows its
15:55
15:55 uh
15:56
15:56 team to have days off with their
15:58
15:58 children just to go to the
16:00
16:00 primary school pantomime, for example.
16:04
16:04 That
16:05
16:05 makes the employee feel great and the
16:07
16:07 family feel more connected and and and
16:08
16:08 benefits from that. But that person can
16:11
16:11 bring back to work, you know, the
16:13
16:13 experiences that he or she learned from
16:16
16:16 that experience. So, um you know, we
16:18
16:18 don’t connect we see things as separate
16:21
16:21 where we can connect and learn from all
16:23
16:23 of our experiences and bring them to
16:24
16:24 work. It seems like there was a rhyme
16:27
16:27 with what you’ve just said there in how
16:29
16:29 you chose to form Ella’s Kitchen as
16:31
16:31 well. It became a B corporation, one of
16:33
16:33 the first in the UK, and I I just wonder
16:36
16:36 if there’s a thread there around seeing
16:38
16:38 what some people would have seen again
16:40
16:40 in different silos, in different
16:41
16:41 departments, and saying these things can
16:42
16:42 exist together. There’s a different way
16:44
16:44 of formulating something.
16:46
16:46 >> There is a barrier
16:48
16:48 why every company doesn’t do kind of
16:50
16:50 some of the things that I spoke about.
16:53
16:53 Um you know, that’s fundamentally in the
16:54
16:54 Companies Act and which fundamentally is
16:56
16:56 from the 1980s, 40 years ago, and we
16:59
16:59 live in a very different world now. But,
17:01
17:01 you know,
17:02
17:02 the the the corporate governance is is
17:05
17:05 set by the Companies Act, which says
17:08
17:08 that shareholders have uh you know,
17:11
17:11 their their needs are primary uh for for
17:13
17:13 a company. And that’s that that
17:16
17:16 it it is what not what B Corps
17:19
17:19 ultimately do. They override that with
17:21
17:21 their own constitution that says equal
17:23
17:23 to
17:24
17:24 um shareholders are as the environment
17:27
17:27 and the community with which the company
17:28
17:28 operates and lives. And so those three
17:31
17:31 three areas in balance can make
17:34
17:34 long-term sustainable better returns for
17:37
17:37 the shareholders, for the community, and
17:38
17:38 for the environment than just
17:40
17:40 prioritizing the shareholders. And that
17:43
17:43 goes back to our children how the
17:45
17:45 current set of employees, if you like,
17:48
17:48 are great parents and are happy with the
17:50
17:50 balance that they have there, but then
17:52
17:52 our children are learning how, you know,
17:54
17:54 economy and society work together, that
17:57
17:57 society doesn’t work just to build an
17:60
17:60 economy, um
18:01
18:01 and that they learn the skills and the
18:03
18:03 confidences, and they feel significant
18:05
18:05 in their childhood so that they are best
18:08
18:08 prepared for a brilliant life ahead
18:10
18:10 because they’re um
18:11
18:11 thriving as children. Right. So, this is
18:14
18:14 so much more holistic in that sense of
18:16
18:16 joining those different dots, which
18:18
18:18 you’ve been able to do creating
18:20
18:20 companies. And you’re already pointing
18:22
18:22 out some very specific ways that this
18:24
18:24 could be rewired. Um
18:26
18:26 let’s take a a pause briefly. I’ve got
18:29
18:29 some
18:30
18:30 pithier questions for you, but they do
18:32
18:32 involve you picking a number uh
18:34
18:34 between 1 and 10. Oh, okay.
18:36
18:36 Uh
18:37
18:37 seven.
18:39
18:39 From your work at Sesame Workshop, so
18:41
18:41 Sesame Workshop based in your owner of
18:42
18:42 Sesame Street, what does great
18:44
18:44 children’s content get right that the
18:47
18:47 rest of the media often misses? Yeah.
18:51
18:51 Well, a little bit of backstep first and
18:54
18:54 then I’ll go forward. Backstep is Sesame
18:56
18:56 Workshop, the uh creators of Sesame
18:58
18:58 Street, have, in my opinion, the best
19:01
19:01 mission statement of any company in the
19:03
19:03 world, and it should be human beings’
19:05
19:05 mission statement. It is to help kids
19:07
19:07 grow smarter, stronger, and kinder. Mhm.
19:09
19:09 So, that is the the how Sesame operates.
19:13
19:13 It that’s its first point of thought of
19:14
19:14 what we’re going to do next.
19:17
19:17 It uses media to help children be
19:19
19:19 educated. Fundamentally,
19:22
19:22 fundamentally in history it’s been
19:24
19:24 television, but it’s it’s it’s
19:25
19:25 multimedia now.
19:27
19:27 And educated doesn’t mean just numbers
19:30
19:30 and letters and reading and writing. It
19:31
19:31 means emotional development as well.
19:35
19:35 And all of those things work best when
19:37
19:37 you involve children in the design
19:40
19:40 co-design,
19:43
19:43 review, user experience of everything.
19:46
19:46 So, involve children at the earliest
19:48
19:48 stage. Give them a voice. So, Sesame
19:51
19:51 does a fantastic job of making sure that
19:55
19:55 as well as the science and the boffins
19:56
19:56 and the professors
19:58
19:58 developing the programs that fit with
20:01
20:01 child development, they listen to
20:03
20:03 children as to what will engage them,
20:05
20:05 what they will find fun, what will
20:08
20:08 spark their curiosity and help that
20:11
20:11 development. So, co-design is the core
20:13
20:13 to it. Love it. Number two. Number two,
20:16
20:16 right. If you were starting Ella’s
20:17
20:17 Kitchen again today, what would you do
20:20
20:20 completely differently? Ooh, good
20:22
20:22 question.
20:24
20:24 Um
20:25
20:25 I’m not sure, to be honest, I would do
20:28
20:28 anything differently because I think we
20:29
20:29 learn from made loads of mistakes, but
20:32
20:32 we learn from mistakes. And so, in a
20:34
20:34 world where there’s no mistakes, then we
20:36
20:36 don’t learn. So, I would embrace the
20:38
20:38 failures that that that we had.
20:40
20:40 Ultimately, it’s a success story. There
20:41
20:41 were many sleepless nights. There were
20:43
20:43 many really serious serious things
20:45
20:45 around product recalls, around money out
20:47
20:47 of money, about legal challenges, about
20:49
20:49 staff and team development, but all of
20:52
20:52 those things helped me learn. So, I’m
20:54
20:54 not sure I I would change anything.
20:56
20:56 Final question. The final number.
20:59
20:59 If Britain became the best place in the
21:01
21:01 world to grow up,
21:03
21:03 what’s something that the rest of the
21:05
21:05 world would start to notice. So,
21:09
21:09 you in raise in writing Raising the
21:11
21:11 Nation and then in using that as a
21:13
21:13 platform to launch the Play Commission,
21:16
21:16 um which I ran for a year, whose job was
21:19
21:19 to say play is an incredibly important
21:23
21:23 part of of childhood. It ran through
21:24
21:24 nearly every chapter of my of my book,
21:27
21:27 um but this generation of children are
21:29
21:29 playing a lot less. They’ve got less
21:30
21:30 time, less space, less permissions, less
21:32
21:32 rights to play than any previous
21:34
21:34 generation. What could we do to change
21:35
21:35 that? What are those barriers? How can
21:37
21:37 we break them down? And we gave 10
21:38
21:38 recommendations to government um to do
21:40
21:40 that and I’m delighted that the
21:42
21:42 conversation is ongoing and and a number
21:44
21:44 of those things are already happening.
21:46
21:46 Um
21:47
21:47 and in the in the in doing that Play
21:49
21:49 Commission, I visited a number of
21:50
21:50 countries to see how they things do
21:52
21:52 differently and see here’s some of the
21:53
21:53 things that I’ve learned. So, Denmark um
21:55
21:55 to start with, they have they give their
21:58
21:58 children a trust and an independence
22:00
22:00 that we don’t in the UK, quite frankly,
22:03
22:03 both culturally and legally. And they’ve
22:05
22:05 designed their public spaces so that
22:07
22:07 there isn’t a place for children over
22:09
22:09 there, but it’s a playful community. So,
22:13
22:13 their parks have adventure playgrounds
22:15
22:15 in a natural nature playgrounds um that
22:18
22:18 um kids spend a lot of time both in
22:20
22:20 school and out of school, in
22:21
22:21 kindergarten, out of school. That So,
22:22
22:22 that that’s something I’ve learned from
22:23
22:23 there, independence and trust for our
22:25
22:25 for our young people. Then we went to to
22:28
22:28 Finland where their education system is
22:31
22:31 overwhelmingly voted in the PISA
22:33
22:33 rankings as
22:35
22:35 best or in the top three always in the
22:37
22:37 world, yet um their their system is all
22:40
22:40 around um playful learning, really.
22:44
22:44 Um
22:45
22:45 you know, they trust their children
22:46
22:46 again, so their children again don’t
22:48
22:48 start to school till much later. Uh
22:49
22:49 there’s no tests along the way. The only
22:52
22:52 test that a child would have in Finland
22:53
22:53 is as they leave school at 17 or 18.
22:56
22:56 Um
22:57
22:57 their teachers all have master’s
22:58
22:58 degrees. Um you know, the teachers are
23:01
23:01 trusted to teach. The national
23:02
23:02 curriculum is very broad broad in its
23:05
23:05 interpretation, local in its
23:06
23:06 interpretation. So, they they’ve just
23:08
23:08 got a fundamentally trustful
23:11
23:11 view of how the educational
23:13
23:13 professionals will deliver education,
23:16
23:16 and that education is much more broad
23:18
23:18 than just how have you done in a set of
23:20
23:20 exams. So, if we took all of those
23:22
23:22 things on board and we overlaid them
23:25
23:25 with Nelson Mandela’s idea that our
23:27
23:27 greatest national asset is in the minds
23:29
23:29 of our children and that we judge a
23:31
23:31 country’s soul as the way about the way
23:33
23:33 it treats its children. I think giving
23:36
23:36 our children more voice, more variety of
23:37
23:37 experience, and looking after their
23:39
23:39 well-being more by those sort of things,
23:41
23:41 we would have more thriving children. We
23:43
23:43 would have They would become thriving
23:45
23:45 adults. You know, our economy, our
23:47
23:47 society, our culture would be more
23:49
23:49 inclusive, more rich, and a happier,
23:53
23:53 more full full place to be. Right. So,
23:55
23:55 permission now, Paul Lindley, to be as
23:58
23:58 blunt as you like.
23:60
23:60 Let’s take a step back from all of this.
24:02
24:02 What you’re saying is that we are
24:04
24:04 failing to think about
24:06
24:06 children as we design our world. Right?
24:10
24:10 But but I suppose I’m I’m Well, you
24:12
24:12 think I’ve I’ve put some words in your
24:13
24:13 mouth.
24:13
24:13 >> No, I would say we’re thinking about
24:15
24:15 children as many adults, not as
24:16
24:16 children.
24:18
24:18 We we we we we try and if make efficient
24:22
24:22 their childhood
24:23
24:23 to help them be the best adults that
24:27
24:27 they can be in a few years time.
24:29
24:29 And I think we should celebrate
24:30
24:30 childhood. We should live in the now.
24:32
24:32 You know,
24:33
24:33 talk about play for a second. You know,
24:36
24:36 play, children’s play, is how
24:39
24:39 children, adults, human beings, you and
24:41
24:41 I, learn about ourselves, the world, our
24:45
24:45 place in the world, who we are,
24:48
24:48 exploring all of those things in a safe
24:51
24:51 environment because it it’s play. Maybe
24:54
24:54 we’re dressing up as somebody that we’re
24:56
24:56 not, and we’re experimenting as how that
24:58
24:58 is. It may be we’re
25:01
25:01 testing our social skills and our
25:02
25:02 communication in something. If it goes
25:04
25:04 wrong, it’s okay. That sort of thing.
25:06
25:06 Now, if we
25:08
25:08 design [clears throat] childhood to be
25:10
25:10 efficient, you go to school, outside of
25:13
25:13 school, we will set you ballet classes,
25:14
25:14 football classes. We’ll drive you there.
25:16
25:16 You won’t need to walk on the road to
25:17
25:17 get there because we think there’s
25:19
25:19 danger everywhere.
25:21
25:21 Then we will have less happy children,
25:25
25:25 less
25:26
25:26 complete human beings.
25:29
25:29 Um and you know, that’s relevant for the
25:30
25:30 here and now, but for the future, it’s
25:33
25:33 got all sorts of horrendous um
25:35
25:35 implications for what human beings are,
25:37
25:37 never mind what our society might be in
25:39
25:39 a generation.
25:41
25:41 Got it. In other words, or to your
25:43
25:43 point, we’re seeing childhood as a means
25:46
25:46 to an end, as a means to adulthood. We
25:48
25:48 don’t pause to see it That’s right. as
25:51
25:51 it is. And
25:52
25:52 the first book that I wrote called uh
25:55
25:55 Little Wins, which is all about the huge
25:56
25:56 power of thinking like a toddler, and it
25:58
25:58 really takes the point of everyone
26:00
26:00 watching, listening to this, you and I
26:03
26:03 once a child, we once a toddler, and we
26:05
26:05 once had unbounded curiosity,
26:07
26:07 imagination, free thinking,
26:09
26:09 self-confidence, that sort of thing to
26:10
26:10 ask things that we might be embarrassed
26:12
26:12 to ask now, or test things that we might
26:14
26:14 be embarrassed to test. And the things
26:16
26:16 that we learned within that, you know,
26:18
26:18 are all about what what a great
26:20
26:20 childhood should should be. All those
26:22
26:22 things should be extended.
26:24
26:24 I interviewed somebody um who was senior
26:26
26:26 at IDEO, which is a creative agency in
26:29
26:29 the West Coast of America, uh very
26:31
26:31 famous um for work that it does with
26:33
26:33 children and creativity. And the guy
26:36
26:36 there said to me, he said, “Just just
26:38
26:38 imagine for a second that we had
26:40
26:40 children’s laughter piped through
26:42
26:42 offices around the world, in the lifts
26:45
26:45 as you went up. Just just laughter. And
26:47
26:47 just imagine how that would make make
26:49
26:49 you think differently about, you know,
26:51
26:51 in the moment, for example, but also
26:53
26:53 about what you think’s important in life
26:55
26:55 and how few times we actually hear that
26:57
26:57 in a normal day-to-day, unless we have
26:60
26:60 children at certain times of the day,
27:02
27:02 you know, in in general society.
27:04
27:04 You know, and that’s that’s, you know,
27:05
27:05 that is a grounding for adults of the
27:08
27:08 beauty and the the the absolute joy of
27:11
27:11 of childhood. It reminds us, you know,
27:13
27:13 what is important. The way society is
27:16
27:16 structured, our institutions reward
27:18
27:18 conformity.
27:20
27:20 Yet, if we’re going to solve cancer and
27:22
27:22 we’re going to get AI right in terms of
27:23
27:23 what’s good and what’s bad for us and if
27:25
27:25 we’re going to be inclusive and reduce
27:27
27:27 inequality and all of things that are
27:29
27:29 not happening right now,
27:31
27:31 we need to be creative, imaginative, and
27:34
27:34 we need to bring back that sort of
27:36
27:36 childlike nonconformity and questioning.
27:39
27:39 Right. So, here’s to that. So, here’s
27:41
27:41 uh,
27:42
27:42 a
27:42
27:42 possibly unfair question.
27:44
27:44 Paul Lindley,
27:45
27:45 you’re appointed
27:47
27:47 the government’s first minister for for
27:49
27:49 childhood.
27:51
27:51 You’re given as much budget as you like.
27:54
27:54 Give us some examples of the sort of
27:55
27:55 changes that we should expect in your
27:58
27:58 first year in office.
27:59
27:59 >> Okay.
27:60
27:60 Uh, budget is not all. It budget’s
28:02
28:02 vitally important. Um, I think you get
28:04
28:04 change done by three things, three Rs.
28:08
28:08 First of all, relationships. Absolutely
28:10
28:10 key to anything in human life, with or
28:12
28:12 without budgets. Relationships between
28:14
28:14 those different government departments
28:16
28:16 in one, the government and its
28:18
28:18 citizenship in another, its citizenship
28:20
28:20 and its children in another. How can all
28:22
28:22 [clears throat] those voices get the
28:23
28:23 best solutions? Number two is resources.
28:26
28:26 Um, so, we do need budgets and I’ll come
28:27
28:27 on to your specific question, but the
28:28
28:28 third thing is recognition. We need to
28:32
28:32 recognize
28:33
28:33 success, small steps in big, horrendous,
28:38
28:38 sort of nonsolvable problems. Small
28:41
28:41 steps will get us there. It might be a
28:42
28:42 5-mi journey, but if we’ve taken 2 ft,
28:44
28:44 we’ve moved 2 ft closer to it.
28:47
28:47 Um,
28:48
28:48 So, I wouldn’t start with the budget. I
28:50
28:50 would start with relationships and I
28:52
28:52 would start with a legal framework that
28:54
28:54 governments can set that encourage
28:55
28:55 relationships. I would start with
28:57
28:57 legislation that uh makes into English
29:01
29:01 law uh the right rights children’s
29:03
29:03 rights. Um So, the right to play would
29:05
29:05 be one within the UNCRC as I spoke about
29:08
29:08 before to put them on a level footing
29:10
29:10 with Scotland, Wales, and many other
29:11
29:11 countries around the world. I would look
29:13
29:13 at the equalities act and the protected
29:15
29:15 rights that um minorities and
29:19
29:19 have across that act of which children
29:22
29:22 don’t fare as well as they should do. I
29:25
29:25 would look at votes and I would look at
29:26
29:26 automatically voted voter registration,
29:28
29:28 that sort of thing. Um then with in
29:30
29:30 terms of budgets, uh I would look at
29:33
29:33 what we’re trying to achieve with those
29:34
29:34 budgets and how best to do that before
29:36
29:36 actually spending the money. So, I would
29:38
29:38 look at how government is structured and
29:40
29:40 that thing we’ve talked about earlier
29:41
29:41 about if I was going to spend a pound,
29:43
29:43 how does it um
29:45
29:45 How does it get coordinated across
29:48
29:48 government? And really importantly in
29:50
29:50 the country that we live in where
29:52
29:52 there’s a lot of devolved powers, most
29:54
29:54 of those powers are for children to
29:57
29:57 change children’s lives for the better
29:58
29:58 are devolved to the Scottish, Welsh, and
30:01
30:01 Northern Irish um governments. So, we
30:03
30:03 have to better coordinate our nation’s
30:07
30:07 policies together. And often those
30:10
30:10 they’re different political parties
30:13
30:13 across those nations. And then I would
30:14
30:14 look at policies. And um so, you know, I
30:17
30:17 would look first I think the best pound
30:20
30:20 for public money is spent in the
30:22
30:22 earliest years. Uh Professor Heckman, um
30:25
30:25 a Nobel winning economist from the
30:27
30:27 University of Chicago many years ago set
30:30
30:30 up the Heckman equation he called it,
30:31
30:31 but he’s shown over longitudinal studies
30:34
30:34 from multiple generations of
30:36
30:36 intervention of of families um shows
30:39
30:39 that if you spend a pound of quality
30:41
30:41 education um in early years, you get £7
30:44
30:44 back to a society. So, I’d put my money
30:47
30:47 into early years, so affordable quality
30:50
30:50 child care, preschool.
30:53
30:53 I would put later school formal school
30:55
30:55 starting later. I would do those things.
30:57
30:57 >> I would
30:58
30:58 seven I think is is where you’ve got
31:00
31:00 evidence of where it works in the
31:02
31:02 Scandinavian countries.
31:04
31:04 I would have children learn
31:06
31:06 and experience life with a you know
31:08
31:08 hugely playful environment in the years
31:11
31:11 between well up to seven.
31:13
31:13 Um
31:14
31:14 You know, one of the brilliant things I
31:16
31:16 saw in Denmark was children going off to
31:19
31:19 kindergarten, but the kindergarten
31:20
31:20 wasn’t a building, it was a bus. So, the
31:23
31:23 bus went round the neighborhood, picked
31:25
31:25 up kids. The driver and the another
31:28
31:28 person on the bus were pedagogues, they
31:29
31:29 call them, but early years teachers
31:31
31:31 effectively. And every day the bus went
31:33
31:33 somewhere different. And the kids
31:34
31:34 learned all sorts of different
31:35
31:35 environments, all sorts of different
31:36
31:36 skills. The day I saw them, they went to
31:38
31:38 an adventure park and they were
31:41
31:41 with Stanley knives sharpening twigs
31:43
31:43 from a willow tree that they had cut
31:45
31:45 down to make pencils.
31:48
31:48 Six-year-olds there sharpening and they
31:50
31:50 were making fire. So, one child had an
31:52
31:52 axe and the other had kindling and they
31:54
31:54 they were learning life skills. Nobody
31:56
31:56 got injured.
31:57
31:57 They enjoyed themselves.
31:58
31:58 >> And you’ve used a phrase a couple of
31:60
31:60 times around the right to play. Mhm. And
32:03
32:03 a listener might say, “Well, Paul, that
32:05
32:05 clearly sounds powerful, but I’m worried
32:08
32:08 that it’s tokenistic, that it doesn’t
32:09
32:09 actually mean anything in practice other
32:11
32:11 than Well, other than making us feel
32:13
32:13 good. So, that’s my challenge.” Here we
32:15
32:15 are.
32:15
32:15 >> Okay.
32:16
32:16 Well, as I said, Scotland and Wales have
32:18
32:18 a right to play. How they implement it
32:20
32:20 is that every local council, local
32:23
32:23 authority has a place sufficiency duty
32:26
32:26 upon them.
32:27
32:27 So, each council has to put a strategy,
32:30
32:30 a three-year strategy together for how
32:32
32:32 every child in their neigh in their
32:34
32:34 patch Um, can play, has
32:38
32:38 sufficient opportunity to play. That
32:40
32:40 might be spaces. They might think we’re
32:42
32:42 going to build playgrounds, skate parks,
32:43
32:43 that sort of thing. It could be places
32:45
32:45 in terms of we’re going to make
32:46
32:46 neighborhoods playful. We’re going to
32:48
32:48 take cars off the road. We’re going to
32:50
32:50 make kids be able to play on my
32:52
32:52 curbside. It’s about time to play. I
32:55
32:55 know from my work that 23 minutes a day
32:58
32:58 has been taken out of primary school
32:60
32:60 break and lunchtimes
33:03
33:03 now compared to
33:05
33:05 today’s children’s parents in the 1990s.
33:07
33:07 >> And that was play time. That was that’s
33:08
33:08 play time and it’s so so important. All
33:11
33:11 the evidence shows the more children
33:12
33:12 play in play break time, the better that
33:15
33:15 they are in in class time. And I would
33:17
33:17 also say that class time should be
33:19
33:19 playful as well, but we can come on to
33:20
33:20 that.
33:21
33:21 >> Um, then
33:23
33:23 the permissions to play
33:25
33:25 point comes into this place efficiency
33:27
33:27 duty. So,
33:29
33:29 you know, there are I know there are
33:30
33:30 7,000 no ball game signs in London for
33:33
33:33 example. Every one of those no ball game
33:35
33:35 signs has no legal right, no legal
33:38
33:38 implication at all. They’re a rude
33:40
33:40 request that says children aren’t
33:42
33:42 welcome here
33:43
33:43 because older people have
33:45
33:45 bigger right to this public space than
33:48
33:48 younger people. That’s effectively what
33:50
33:50 it says. They should be taken away in my
33:52
33:52 view, but place efficiency duty can look
33:54
33:54 at that. So, each council has an
33:56
33:56 obligation to write a three-year
33:58
33:58 strategy and then every year do an audit
33:60
33:60 of that to say how they’re doing against
34:02
34:02 that strategy. And playfulness for
34:04
34:04 neurodiverse or kids who don’t speak
34:07
34:07 English or kids with a disability, all
34:09
34:09 of those things need to be included in
34:12
34:12 that strategy. That’s a real implication
34:15
34:15 and the thing that it does,
34:17
34:17 the evidence shows in Wales and in
34:19
34:19 Scotland is that at the local level, at
34:22
34:22 that council level, the different
34:24
34:24 departments of the council work much
34:26
34:26 more closely together than they would
34:27
34:27 have done before because play doesn’t
34:29
34:29 sit in any one of them. It could be to
34:31
34:31 do with the parks and the communities,
34:33
34:33 it could be to do with the health and
34:34
34:34 education, it could be do with social
34:36
34:36 services. All of those things come
34:37
34:37 together.
34:38
34:38 And make
34:41
34:41 make a difference. Um
34:43
34:43 super quick fire.
34:44
34:44 To what extent do you play and make time
34:46
34:46 to play in your life? Oh, I’m just a big
34:48
34:48 kid, you know, I’ve got gray hair, lines
34:50
34:50 and stuff.
34:51
34:51 Um I think why I was successful as an
34:54
34:54 entrepreneur is because I didn’t
34:56
34:56 conform, I questioned the rules. I What
34:59
34:59 I love about toddlers is not only do
35:01
35:01 they ask why all the time, but they ask
35:03
35:03 why not. That’s me. So, I play by
35:07
35:07 default.
35:09
35:09 I release my energy by playing with, you
35:12
35:12 know, my kids who are grown up now, but
35:15
35:15 still playing. They do all sorts of
35:16
35:16 sports and playful
35:18
35:18 stuff around that. But, you know, in my
35:20
35:20 work
35:21
35:21 I look at it in a playful
35:25
35:25 way in that what How can you make this
35:29
35:29 effective and fun and joyful? I’ve I’ve
35:32
35:32 certainly seen that.
35:34
35:34 I have with you the most playful
35:35
35:35 entrepreneurial conversations of
35:37
35:37 probably anyone I speak to. So, you
35:39
35:39 definitely live that. Um
35:41
35:41 very quickly, the mantra that we often
35:45
35:45 come to on Future Forum is about leaving
35:47
35:47 your lane, about learning from other
35:48
35:48 sectors. You’ve made your name in
35:50
35:50 you know, the UK’s leading baby food
35:51
35:51 company, but then also in other areas
35:53
35:53 including play, including putting
35:55
35:55 children at the center of policy. Any
35:56
35:56 sectors or areas that you deliberately
35:59
35:59 or consciously cross-pollinate into your
36:02
36:02 life because you’re also interested in
36:04
36:04 them?
36:05
36:05 Well, you’ve talked about a number of
36:07
36:07 the things that I do and, you know, some
36:10
36:10 people might say that guy should focus
36:11
36:11 on one or two things. Or, you could say
36:14
36:14 that is such an interesting life because
36:16
36:16 you’re speaking to so many people with
36:18
36:18 so many different experiences that you
36:20
36:20 can filter all of them and work out or
36:22
36:22 introduce them to each other. You are,
36:24
36:24 you know, I’ve learned so much from you
36:25
36:25 about connecting people together where
36:28
36:28 ideas can seed and and develop. Um so,
36:32
36:32 I’ve got had this privilege of being
36:34
36:34 able to see life from many different
36:37
36:37 perspectives.
36:38
36:38 And I think that draws together, you
36:41
36:41 know, the the solution to some problems
36:43
36:43 are not in the expertise of the person
36:45
36:45 that’s trying to deal with it. It It
36:47
36:47 could be something totally different.
36:49
36:49 So, you know, for example, the Play
36:51
36:51 Commission that I brought together 20
36:53
36:53 commissioners from all who didn’t most
36:55
36:55 of them didn’t know each other from
36:56
36:56 different aspects of life. And we had
36:58
36:58 some great debates and quite differences
37:00
37:00 of opinion to reach a consensus um
37:04
37:04 with the expertise that they they
37:05
37:05 brought. Um children that are growing up
37:08
37:08 today,
37:09
37:09 I think face four fundamentally
37:12
37:12 different
37:14
37:14 environ- like lives. They’re living
37:15
37:15 their lives in a com- four different
37:17
37:17 ways than any other
37:19
37:19 generation of children has done. And I
37:22
37:22 think joining people together to find
37:23
37:23 the solutions to how they address them
37:25
37:25 is is core to it. The four things are
37:27
37:27 they they live in a volatile, complex,
37:29
37:29 ambiguous, uncertain world that it’s so
37:33
37:33 difficult to plan. So, what what you
37:35
37:35 know, if they’re thinking about the
37:37
37:37 future, what skills do they need? If
37:39
37:39 they’re thinking about the present, you
37:41
37:41 know, what spaces do they have access to
37:42
37:42 and what they how are they going to
37:43
37:43 learn? But, you know, we’ve got
37:45
37:45 environmental crisis, financial crisis,
37:48
37:48 geopolitical crises, technology crisis,
37:50
37:50 just crisis everywhere. And that only
37:52
37:52 not only affects the children who, you
37:54
37:54 know, how do they plan and how do they
37:56
37:56 think about how do they become
37:57
37:57 optimistic and hopeful for a future?
37:60
37:60 But, their parents as well who feel less
38:02
38:02 powerful or less confident as parents
38:05
38:05 because they don’t know the solutions to
38:07
38:07 these either. Second thing is
38:08
38:08 short-termism. It is
38:11
38:11 fundamentally changed over the last 20,
38:13
38:13 30, 40 years that everything in society
38:16
38:16 is about the here and now. Whether you
38:17
38:17 think about consumerism and, you know,
38:20
38:20 your Amazon, your Netflix, and your
38:21
38:21 dating apps, and you know, Ricardo and
38:24
38:24 everything just I want something and
38:26
38:26 I’ll get it in 10 minutes time sort of
38:27
38:27 thing.
38:28
38:28 versus the
38:29
38:29 joy or the learning and the kind of
38:32
38:32 value of long-term relationships and
38:36
38:36 etc.
38:37
38:37 Um but also, you know, the political
38:39
38:39 cycle, the solutions that our
38:40
38:40 politicians bring are sticking plasters
38:42
38:42 effectively. You know, when crises have
38:44
38:44 happened in the past, let’s say
38:47
38:47 in the early 20th century or after the
38:48
38:48 war, fundamentally different things
38:51
38:51 occurred. Welfare states and national
38:53
38:53 health services and NATO and that sort
38:55
38:55 of thing.
38:56
38:56 We we’ve not none of that really in the
38:57
38:57 last generation to help against the
38:59
38:59 short-termism within children’s daily
39:01
39:01 lives, within school. You know, that
39:03
39:03 that their school lives are dominated by
39:05
39:05 SATs and league tables of their schools.
39:08
39:08 Short-term that the that school needs to
39:10
39:10 get money and it’s not really about the
39:12
39:12 long-term development of the child. You
39:14
39:14 know, and social media and media and
39:15
39:15 news cycles are all very short-term and
39:17
39:17 business as well, you know, the
39:18
39:18 domination of private equity in and and
39:21
39:21 and public companies. Um third thing is
39:23
39:23 technology, clearly, and we could have a
39:24
39:24 whole podcast on that, but you know, how
39:26
39:26 do you protect children but how do you
39:28
39:28 give them the opportunities that any
39:29
39:29 some form of technology brings? It’s
39:31
39:31 it’s very present at the moment,
39:33
39:33 obviously. And the third the fourth
39:34
39:34 thing is really about demographic
39:36
39:36 changes, which is really difficult to to
39:39
39:39 sort of
39:40
39:40 solve in a way without whilst ever
39:43
39:43 children don’t have a voice at the table
39:46
39:46 because there are less children than
39:47
39:47 there were in our country. There are far
39:49
39:49 more older people.
39:51
39:51 Um you know, children’s lives now are a
39:53
39:53 lot more diverse. They come from
39:54
39:54 different backgrounds, different
39:55
39:55 heritages, but the age of their mothers
39:58
39:58 when they’re having children is a lot
39:59
39:59 more spread than it was 30 40 years ago.
40:03
40:03 Um and um you know, the number of
40:06
40:06 children living in poverty now is double
40:09
40:09 what it was when I was a child. It’s
40:11
40:11 about a third of all children. Whereas
40:13
40:13 the number of older people living in
40:14
40:14 poverty is half from I was a child. So,
40:18
40:18 I I say those things because I think the
40:20
40:20 solution to those different problems is
40:23
40:23 connected and it’s all around connecting
40:26
40:26 ideas and people and doing things
40:28
40:28 communally and together and learning
40:30
40:30 from each other, pooling resources.
40:34
40:34 Um it’s about relationships as well as
40:35
40:35 resources and as well as recognizing the
40:38
40:38 small steps that we take. Now, I can’t
40:40
40:40 believe we’ve not
40:42
40:42 I wish we had a couple of hours for
40:44
40:44 these conversations.
40:45
40:45 You’re the Chancellor of University at
40:46
40:46 Reading University. Give us a glimpse of
40:50
40:50 what a university of the future looks
40:52
40:52 like. What will it contain hopefully
40:54
40:54 more of than it does today? Just help us
40:56
40:56 think. Yeah.
40:57
40:57 Uh
40:59
40:59 it’s a question I think about a lot.
41:00
41:00 What is the purpose of a university in a
41:02
41:02 society?
41:03
41:03 Because we tend to have evolved culture
41:05
41:05 has evolved that it’s for young people.
41:08
41:08 It’s for people who want to go deep into
41:10
41:10 a subject so that they can get a better
41:12
41:12 job out of it at the end. It’s economic.
41:16
41:16 Universities really set up to be public
41:18
41:18 um
41:19
41:19 institutions where research happened
41:21
41:21 that all of us benefited from.
41:23
41:23 And that’s kind of
41:24
41:24 been forgotten in the zeitgeist of like
41:27
41:27 what a university is for.
41:28
41:28 Young people.
41:30
41:30 Is it just for young people? I’m I’m all
41:31
41:31 about young people as clearly from from
41:33
41:33 from this podcast. But, you know, if our
41:36
41:36 people are living longer, our population
41:38
41:38 is living longer, what happens in those
41:40
41:40 retiring years? Why don’t those people
41:42
41:42 get the benefit from a publicly funded
41:44
41:44 institution like a university? Do they
41:47
41:47 need to learn academic stuff? Maybe
41:49
41:49 because maybe they want you know, maybe
41:50
41:50 it’s about keeping them in employment or
41:52
41:52 keeping them with a passion that creates
41:55
41:55 wealth that pays tax longer than they
41:57
41:57 otherwise do they do or maybe they find
41:60
41:60 a
42:00
42:00 hobby or a passion through all the
42:02
42:02 university’s assets that they have or
42:04
42:04 maybe they find other people, which is a
42:06
42:06 big socialization I think is one of the
42:08
42:08 biggest things about universities. You
42:10
42:10 know, so what I see from the young
42:11
42:11 people that I meet, you know, week on
42:14
42:14 week at a university, you know, they’re
42:16
42:16 incredibly optimistic. We can’t lose
42:19
42:19 that from our country. They’re
42:20
42:20 fantastic. They’ve got solutions that
42:22
42:22 they’re they’re they’re they’re they’re
42:23
42:23 they’re they’re serious about how the
42:25
42:25 world can be better. They are so diverse
42:27
42:27 from their different experiences and
42:28
42:28 they’re mingling with each other and
42:30
42:30 understanding things that they wouldn’t
42:31
42:31 have seen or heard of before and we’ve
42:32
42:32 got to protect that. The the free speech
42:35
42:35 part of universities absolutely vital to
42:37
42:37 a thriving society. And then
42:39
42:39 what they’re learning, you know, there’s
42:41
42:41 a huge growth in volunteering within
42:42
42:42 students at university. I’m so proud. I
42:44
42:44 think the next couple of weeks we’ve got
42:46
42:46 our volunteering awards and you’ll see
42:48
42:48 so many students going out into the
42:49
42:49 community offering their services, their
42:51
42:51 skills, bringing communities together.
42:54
42:54 So, if it can be more incentivized for a
42:57
42:57 university
42:59
42:59 experience to be more holistic than
43:01
43:01 going deep into, you know, being
43:04
43:04 brilliant at a certain subject to being
43:06
43:06 a wider, more
43:09
43:09 enlightened or more experienced citizen,
43:13
43:13 then the bus driver whose family has
43:15
43:15 never been to university is paying tax
43:16
43:16 for the other kids or other people to go
43:18
43:18 to university will get more out of that
43:21
43:21 than the people at university.
43:23
43:23 Love that. I’m imagining a world in
43:26
43:26 which we take a gap year after
43:28
43:28 retirement before going to university.
43:30
43:30 >> Yeah, brilliant. We flip it all. We flip
43:33
43:33 it all around.
43:34
43:34 Uh Paul,
43:35
43:35 I absolutely love this conversation and
43:37
43:37 I’m completely confident that it’s going
43:39
43:39 to galvanize.
43:40
43:40 Uh so, you don’t know what you’ve
43:41
43:41 unleashed now because I think it’s going
43:43
43:43 to draw some really interesting
43:45
43:45 conversations in.
43:46
43:46 Um so, thank you first of all.
43:49
43:49 Um I’m going to finish with the question
43:51
43:51 we ask all our guests on Tomorrow, which
43:52
43:52 is
43:53
43:53 um to send a memo into the future.
43:56
43:56 I’m going to ask you to do it by talking
43:58
43:58 to our
43:59
43:59 guest here, which is to say um
44:02
44:02 it could be to a future version of
44:03
44:03 yourself. It could be to a future
44:05
44:05 entrepreneur or campaigner. It could be
44:07
44:07 in 10 years’ time, however long you
44:08
44:08 like. Um, what would you say to them? I
44:11
44:11 would like to give a message to a future
44:13
44:13 generation.
44:15
44:15 Let’s say our children’s children.
44:17
44:17 And I would like to say that I hope that
44:20
44:20 you live in a world where you’re trusted
44:23
44:23 and that my generation has facilitated a
44:25
44:25 culture and a legal system where you
44:29
44:29 have a voice where your thoughts and
44:32
44:32 needs are accounted for as much as
44:34
44:34 anybody else’s that your childhood is
44:36
44:36 expansive and not constricted
44:40
44:40 and that we all value that you being
44:42
44:42 children in the now just because you’re
44:45
44:45 children is a joy to the rest of us and
44:47
44:47 that we don’t need you to be many adults
44:49
44:49 ahead of your time. Enjoy your future. I
44:52
44:52 hope we left you that legacy. Paul
44:54
44:54 Lindley, our guest today and we
44:55
44:55 absolutely commend you. Paul’s book,
44:57
44:57 Raising the Nation, it is packed full of
44:60
44:60 fantastic examples, a whole series of
45:03
45:03 essays and uh there is uh entrepreneur,
45:06
45:06 campaigner, chancellor of a university
45:09
45:09 helping us to join the dots. And if
45:11
45:11 you’ve enjoyed this conversation, please
45:13
45:13 do help us
45:14
45:14 uh on tomorrow by subscribing and
45:16
45:16 spreading the word and telling us who
45:18
45:18 else you think that we should be talking
45:20
45:20 to. So, this is Our Future Forum’s
45:23
45:23 mission to bring people together from
45:25
45:25 very different worlds to shape the
45:27
45:27 future together. I’m Ollie Barrett.
45:29
45:29 Thank you for tuning in and until next
45:31
45:31 time, goodbye.
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